ArchivedOSAS revisitedAnd yet you choose to bold only a portion of the definition and commentary of "apostasy" which best suits your doctrine, hmmm.... And still with the accusations? They make me appear as if I have a problem maintaining my composure which denigrates my character on this board. If you want to use internet etiquette as a standard for judgment then shame on your part. You don't know me too well do you? Anyone who knows be just a bit knows that I have a habit of using large fonts as a posting style to show emphasis and stress my point at times, not yelling. I suppose the "Old Omega" was yelling in his signature also? http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=37873&highlight=#37873 Now see if you can get past your accusations towards me and engage in a civilized debate for once, because I know myself better than you know me to realize that your comment is not only absurd, but also demonstrates that you have poor discernment. You didn't answer my question Aineo, since Billy Graham and Mel White are apostates, does this imply that their salvation is somehow lost? You keep bringing Billy Graham and Mel White into this discussion when all the while have no substantial evidence to prove that either Billy Graham OR Mel White were indeed saved, you yourself had said it with your own mouth, only God can determine who or who is not saved. Once again according to the New Unger's Bible dictionary, and apostate apparently can only be professors and (not actual possessors of true salvation). Aineo, you, me, nor the officer of the court who judged you has the title of the "Son of God", and that is beside my point. The point which I am stressing is that the demons also believe, however their belief does not save them. Again with Mel White, being part of the vine is a metaphor and the unproductive vine does not represent a true convert anymore than a tare is represented as a true convert, both the wheat (true convert) and the tares (false convert) are together, just as the productive and the nonproductive branches are together. However just as the tares which do not come to fruition, so does the unproductive branch. And BOTH are cast into the fire to be burned. Your analysis of being "pruned" in comparison to the "loss of Salvation" is hilarious, John 15:2 actually states that the branches that are "pruned" are pruned to bring forth (MORE FRUIT), not loss of salvation. The branches that do not bring forth fruit are not "pruned" (kathairo:cleanse or to remove any impurity), they are "taken away" (airo:remove, put away). So you stating that there is such thing as a pruned unproductive branch is proven wrong. Therefore equating "cut off" (loss of salvation) to "pruned" is a complete distortion of scripture. Furthermore the term "cut off" does not denote loss of Salvation, take a look at this verse in the same passage: This is to ask whether Israel has stumbled so badly that they have fallen completely out of God's program. Is there no future for Israel? Paul shows that Israel's apparent rejection is not permanent because of God's purposes for Israel's rejection, and the promise of her restoration. Notice that Paul is not speaking of individual persons, but Jews and Gentiles colllectively. Thus to associate the term "cut off" with the loss of salvation and not the blessings of God is taking scriptures out of context. And IF one can die to God after being "born again", one way to do it would be to willfully sin, which apparently goes against the nature of those who are (born of God) who do not "practice sin", common sense and logical reasoning. Thank you for finishing 1 John 5:4 for me, IF the person fails to "overcome", then how are they born of God? Because 1 John 5:4 says that whatsoever is born of God (perfect, passive) overcometh (present, active) the world, which is literally stating that being born of God is a past event and is concluded in a future state and indicates that the one born of God continually overcomes, not somehow falling short and losing their salvation through unbelief. You said that 1 John 3:2 reads "now" not now and forever? And? What did you mean when you said that we become sons of God? You obviously were implying that we cannot be "sons of God" or saved until the end, correct? Well, 1 John 3:2 which reads now are we the sons of God , now (nun:the present time) are we (esmenresent tense), and that my friend refutes your interpretation that we cannot be sons of God until a future state. Isn't that what I said to a certain degree? that we are not to judge others? Then why do you do it? You have done it with Billy Graham and Mel White, do you have the ability to search their hearts? Do you know for certainty whether they were simply professors or possessors of Salvation? Aineo, I make and all out effort to read the bible carefully and with the desire to learn God's truth, and have spent countless hours doing so, so not only do your assumptions go right out the window, but by diligently studying the bible with a fervent dersire to learn God's truth has led me to know that Conditional Security is a manmade doctrine with bias interpretations and opinions. That is a poor analogy Aineo! Read it into context, depart means to "withdraw from", you don't have to possess faith to withdraw from the Gospel. If the person "attained" the Gospel, how does this somehow imply that the person possessed faith? Aineo, the Lake of Fire is considered the "Second Death" and Revelation 20:14 actually says (This is the second death) to refer to the Lake of Fire. Now are you trying to tell me that the devil, the beast and the false prophet were somehow born twice? The Bible clearly says (whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.), those who are not found in the book of life includes all unbelievers, including those who die in sin. Then it goes on to say that "ALL LIARS" which would includes any unbeliever is cast into the Lake of Fire, and this is referred to as the "Second Death" a). What is the second death? Punishment in the Lake of Fire. b). Who is cast into the Lake of Fire? whosoever was not found written in the book of life. c). Are devil worshipers, liars and unbelievers who were never (born again) and rejects God's offer of Salvation found written in the book of life? The obvious answer would be an emphatic NO! d). And what happens to those who are not found written in the book of life? They are cast into the lake of fire, which is referred to as the "Second Death" This is a perfect example how you have distorted and perverted the scriptures to accommodate your false doctrine, and by doing so you have compromised God's authoritative truth. God Bless! |
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