(Omega) wrote:Aineo wrote:Yes, I do resort to lexicons and dictionaries since I am not so arrogant as to think I know the meaning of every word in the Greek and English languages, which apparently you do since you are the one who choose to denigrate me to doing what any child should do in order to gain a full understanding of any language.
Aineo, you need to stop with the slanderings, it is sickening. The lexicons and dictionaries are what defines the meaning, not me. You simply want to ignore them in context.
Really? It seems to me that when all Bible dictionaries define "apostasy" the same way and you take exception to the definition it is you who refuse to accept the context not only of the definition but Scriptures that contain the English or Greek word that means apostasy. As to being slanderous what do you call those who pervert God's truth by attempting to explain away what Jesus taught?
Characteristics of a born-again believer:
- But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
- Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
- If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)
- For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)
- We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)
[/quote]Well, at least you have finally posted something worth reading, but here again you are taking 1 John out of context. For instance explain 1 John 3:9 in light of this:
1 John 1:5-10
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV
1 reason I like the NAS over the KJ is that 1 John 3:9 reads:
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. NAS
The same comment applies to 1 John 5:19 since according to you it contradicts 1 John 1:5-10. As to 1 John 5:4 this verse is actually one that proves my point not yours since John writes that we overcome
by faith.
Now lets take a look at John 1:12-13
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
KJV
Verse 12 plainly states that “as many as received him, to them gave he power
to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. Verse 13 then tells us that we are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. These two verses do not even indicate OSAS all they indicate is God gives those who receive Jesus are given the power to
become sons of God.
Then claim that Billy Graham and Mel White and others have already become apostate, if your definition of apostate equates to the "loss of salvation", then your at a loss because your argument not only displays fallacy but conflicts with sound doctrine.
This statement is simply ludicrous since those who fall into apostasy are those who once stood on God’s truth and then start to teach false doctrine like Jesus is not the only path to salvation and that committed gay relationships are okay in the eyes of a Holy God. In other words as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Billy Graham and Mel White have both fallen in gross theological error, which is the definition of apostasy. Also you have misquoted me I did not post that White and Graham have fallen away from the faith, I posted they have become apostate. Falling away and apostasy as not the same thing but they have the same result and that result is an eternity in the lake of fire as per God’s revealed truth.
Paul taught apostasy or the falling away from the faith, he did not teach that those who actually "fell away" were in FACT saved. Then you have the audacity of saying that I denigrate the Holy Spirit and Jesus? That is called slander. You have YET to prove that those who have "departed" "fell away" (aphistemi) once possessed Salvation which has been my premise from the get go. The only passage that states that a "believer" can actually depart from their belief is found in Luke 8:13, and even that verse does not validate that those who "fall away" actually once obtained Salvation. The word for "believe" is (pisteuo) and is found in James 2:19 where it states that the demons also "believe" (pisteuo). Now you can argue that no demon is going to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, however that argument is faulty because the same can be said about a person that believes (just as the demons) while not confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, then "fall away". Furthermore, the demons of Gadarene fully acknowledged with action that Jesus is "the Son of God" (Matt. 8:29). I certainly hope that in your next response that you will not continue with accusations but stick with the topic "Salvation" and whether or not one can lose it, which BTW you have yet to prove.
Once again how can one fall way or depart from something they never possessed in the first place? However, James states that demons “believe” but demons do not confess that Jesus Christ is Lord so you are again trying to establish your thesis by ignoring parts of Scripture.
Matthew 8:29
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV
I fail to see how you get that these demons declared Jesus Christ is Lord. All they did was acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God. In other words those demons did not meet the criteria of believing and confessing that Jesus Christ is their Lord, they confessed Jesus Christ is their judge!
You insist this thread deals with salvation and then attempt to side step how we are saved.
Luke 7:44-50
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV
Luke 18:39-43
39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.
KJV
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV
Now since you keep insisting those who fall way were never saved in the first place, my question still stands: “How do you know who is and who is not saved?” You insist that you are saved, which is between you and God and something I cannot comment on since I do not know what is in your heart. So you tell me how you know what is in the heart of those who fall away and/or become apostate? The truth is you cannot and to make the statement “they were never saved in the first place” is an attempt to place yourself as the judge of mankind.
Also you have yet to establish that once saved a person cannot loose their salvation, especially in light of what Jesus and Paul plainly teach and both plainly teach that men will fall away as the result of tribulation and following false prophets who teach false doctrine and to deny that this is true is to call Jesus and the Holy Spirit liars.
Oh and btw, the characteristics of a born again believer you posted, I know lots of cult members who meet your criteria or again have you forgotten the debate with the oneness groups especially those from the United Pentecostal Church. One characteristic you failed to post is:
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS
And for nearly the tenth time, how do you reconcile this comment from your previous posts:
Aineo wrote:So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.
How do I reconcile Jesus' teaching that only those who endure to the end will be saved? I don't, I simply blieve it as truth. And if you put what I posted in context of the original post I was asking you how you can determine who is and who is not saved since "they were never saved in the first place" could easily apply to all professed Christians who are not part of the first resurrection. And that includes OSAS advocates and conditional security advocates since God is no respector of persons and will not judge us based on "essential doctrines of Christianity" put on His criteria, which is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.