Aineo wrote:I see you simply refuse to get past wrangling over words. When I depart my home to go to the store I do not apostate from my home. I am simply running an errand and will return. However, if I depart from a religion, faith, or belief I renounce that religion, faith, or belief. All of your examples of how the above Greek word is translated signify a change of location, a request that God remove an ailment or instuctions to depart from sin. None of these examples address the issue of departing from the faith, which you say is a set of essential doctrines, which by the way you refuse to list.
Study to show yourselves approved does not mean pull Scripture out of context or ignore anything that might disprove a favorite doctrine. Now lets look at the context of those passages you refuse to accept a showing a genuine believer can loose their faith, which results in the loose of salvation.
EXACTLY! Something you continually do. Aineo, you are not going to divert my argument using interpretations which mistranslate words and inappropriately insert them with contextual errors. Why don't you take a close look at the definition of apostasy and you will see for yourself that it coincides with a departure from the (Truth of God). Furthermore your definition of departing from the faith is the renouncement of that religion in no way proves that the person who renounces or gives up the faith once obtained salvation. They give up or renounce the revealed truth of God, not their complete trust or faith in Gods truth revealed. Then you continually ask me to define essential doctrines when the commentator
you quoted defines "the faith" as Gods truth revealed. However I do want to comment on how you decided to deliberately pick and choose which definitions are apt to your personal opinions. 1 Timothy 4:1 does not in any way prove that those who depart from the faith ever possessed faith or lost their salvation, anyone who teaches this is bias with their commentary and interpretation as you are with yours. You can quote your Greek definitions of depart and the faith and I will continue to quote mines not using a commentary of any source as with you to conform to what is suitable to your ears. I can quote dozens of commentary by modern theologians and bible scholars which disagree with yours, however I won't.
Aineo wrote:Moody Press supports OSAS and published the New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, which explains why Unger adds a personal commentary to what the word “apostasy” actually means.
Ok, lets see!
APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).
Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).
In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).
Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Aineo, have the humility to admit your wrong for once. You want to discuss obfuscating Gods word? I will give a prime example of how your personal opinions and rebuttals are absolute distortions and perversions of the logos. Not only did the commentator state that (Apostasy) is an act of a
professed Christian, and that the New Testament usually defines it as "apostasy from
the faith" (apostasia a fide). He then further comments by saying that the person departs from (the faith) but not from the outward profession of it. According to the commentator "the faith" is defined as revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ and the redemption through His atoning sacrifice. Even further proof that your ears are tickled is that the commentator shockingly states that "
Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death" The 2nd but shorter definition and commentary below the first defines apostasy as a falling away from (the faith), not their faith and then quotes from Jeremiah 2:19 "
Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will (reprove) you" The word "reprove" is rendered [
3198]yakach,
yaw-kahh'; a primitive root; to be right (
i.e. correct); reciprocal, to argue; causatively, to decide,
justify or convict:--appoint, argue,
chasten, convince, correct(-ion), daysman, dispute, judge, maintain, plead, reason (together),
rebuke, reprove(-r), surely, in any wise. He then goes on to say that "
Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord." without adducing it as a false doctrine. Although I do not put my reliance upon commentators or theologians, I have exposed your inclination to nitpick the words defined in scriptural context and accuse me of obfuscating God word and avoiding your questions as an excuse to hide behind the false doctrine of Conditional Security. The subtle variances between both commentators is the reason as to why I make it an effort to study diligently the scriptures for myself.
In all fairness, take a look at the various meanings of the word "shall depart from" and "the faith" and how it is interpreted in context, and how it is synonymous with the word apostate.
SHALL DEPART FROM:
(aphistemi)
a)to remove
b)refrain,
c)withdraw self
d)draw (fall) away
e)desert
You have neglected the other meanings and singled out the definition which is best suitable to your opinion and not how the passage reads in context.
THE FAITH:
(pistis)
a)of religious truth
b)the truthfulness of God
c)the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself
d)assurance
e)reliance upon Christ for salvation
I will continue to re-post and reiterate in CONTEXT how your interpretations have failed when it comes to adequately understanding and defining words in their appropriate context.
- Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
- Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
- For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)
- For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
- Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)
Timothy is referred to as Paul's "own son in (the faith);" not Paul's "own son in (faith), apparently Paul is not calling Timothy his son by faith. "Holding the mystery of the faith;" not "Holding the mystery of faith". It is not faith which is a mystery but "the faith" or the Gospel of truth of Jesus or God as in (Rom. 16:25; Mk. 4:11; Matt. 13:11; Eph. 3:3,4) both referring to the truth of God and not trust or personal faith in God and both are found in 1 Timothy.
Aineo wrote:Now who is saved?
Romans 10:6-10
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or' Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). " 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS
And? Where in 1 Timothy 4:1 does it actually state that any person actually possessed salvation OR believed in their hearts? This is a legitimate question which you intentionally sidestepped each time it is presented.
Aineo wrote:Does Paul believe OSAS? Not at all since in Chapter 11 we read:
Romans 11:22-24
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? NAS
Now if Paul believed and taught OSAS the "if you" in Romans 11:22 should read "because you". Large portions of what Paul writes in his epistles are warnings of the consequences of disobedience a fact you have chosen to ignore.
BTW, what you choose to emphasize in Scripture does not mean you are emphasizing what is germane to this thread and is nothing more than screaming rants that are inappropriate for any rational discussion of God’s truth.
LOL! Right back at ya! Secondly nobody is screaming rants here Aineo, your assumptions are not only laughable but is seems as if you are attempting to denigrating my character with underhanded remarks. No where in Rom. 11:22-27 does it mention the loss of salvation. Paul speaks of Israel and the Gentiles more as a whole rather than individual persons. The emphasis within these verses does not speak of salvation of individual persons but the extent of the blessings and privileges of the Jews and the Gentiles. Furthermore the context of that passage stresses the sovereignty of God and the assurance of His blessings regardless of His peoples shortcomings, including believers. In other words Paul is stressing assurance to the one who believes. This passage is not restricted to Salvation only but to the blessings of God and cannot be determined that those who are "cut off" lose their salvation since God is able to re-graft His people. You and other conditional security adherents have a knack of playing illusionists and reinterpreting scriptures to accommodate deceptive doctrines.
Aineo wrote:As to my not answering your questions, when are you going to post an answer to my questions? So far you have side stepped every question put to you on this thread in a futile attempt to obfuscate the Lord’s teaching as well as what Paul, Peter, John, and the author of Hebrews plainly teach and that is that some “genuine believers” will fall away and/or become apostate.
In a congregation of 100 people you will have some who are nothing more than sightseerers, some who are weak and can be influenced by false doctrines, some who live an obedient life for decades and some will(like Billy Graham and Mel White) depart from God’s truth and some who will stand on God’s truth even to the loss of their lives. It is this last category who will "endure to the end" all others will be subject to the wrath of God and an eternity in the lake of fire.
I have sidestepped every question put to me on this thread!?..... Yeah Aineo, sure, GOOD ONE! The very last words in your response are not only preposterous but also demonstrate your lack of common sense. So if Billy Graham and Mel White departed from Gods truth, does this mean that their Salvation is lost? And if so how do you reconcile this comment from your previous posts". Since you want to appeal to the The New Unger's Bible definition of Apostasy, it defines "apostasy" as being
different from error, which may be the
result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6),
or heresy, which may be the
result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both (error and heresy) may accordingly be consistent with
true faith. Now if you agree with the entire interpretation of The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, then you must take into consideration that Billy Graham and Mel White may not be apostates if they in fact confessed with their mouths and believed in their hearts the Lord Jesus, and if you consider them apostates then you must take into consideration that they may have not been saved since "Apostates" apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation according to The New Unger's Bible definition of an apostate. A little advice, if you are in any way implying that either Billy Graham or Mel White had lost their Salvation then you may want to consider what Jesus said:
JESUS wrote:Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)
Jesus strictly warns against the high-handed condemnation of others, it is God's task alone to render a judgment that condemns and not, you, me or anyone for that matter.
Aineo wrote:So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.
This entire thread deals "Salvation" and whether or not we can lose it, so did Billy Graham and Mel White lose their salvation? And if so, how do you conclude this since the only way you or I or anyone can determine
with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end? Key word is "SAVED". Critical interpretation and hermeneutical examination of the scriptures have bore witness that Conditional Security is a manmade doctrine. Furthermore it is known to accuse the doctrine of Eternal Security as a "license to sin" by disregarding the nature of the born-again believer who lives not according to the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God.
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:14-16)
God Bless!