Aineo, if you fail to understand what departing from the faith actually means after reading this post, then your ears are "Dull of Hearing", and I say this in a brotherly way and not to antagonize you.
Your entire post in no way proves that Salvation can be lost, but is rather a description defining how someone is born again, and a vain attempt at trying to disprove what I have utterly refuted with adequate definition of the words being discussed and in the EXACT context it is used. I'm going to explain 1 Timothy 4 in a way which should be easily understood, and in plain english, common sense and sound reasoning.
Aineo wrote:THE FAITH clearly refers to the Christian Doctrine? Show me in Scripture where Christian Doctrine saves mankind? How are we saved?
I know how we are saved Aineo, although well articulated, I don't need an entire sermon on how it is accomplished, but thanks anyways! Now where does it actually state in scripture that the "SAVED" actually depart from the Christian Doctrine? Forgive me for using the word Doctrine as the exact interpretation of "THE FAITH", nevertheless I will demonstrate how my rebuttal remains Tried, Tested and True!
Aineo wrote:All cults are doctrine driven and all cult members put their faith in doctrine not the Lord. The WOF movement, Catholicism, the Orthodox faiths, Mormon’s, JW’s, and etc. are all doctrine driven and all of these put their faith in false doctrines that contradict God’s inerrant truth as revealed in His word.
1 Timothy 4
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. 7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11 Prescribe and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed upon you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. NAS
Titus 1:5-9
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. NAS
Aineo, please read the words that precede "sound doctrine", it says
words of (the faith) What is the faith? Are trying to imply that (the faith) refers to a personal conviction of the truth? Where are the "words" derived from? Common sense tell us that it is derived from the Word of God. And what does sound doctrine mean?
Sound: hugiaino,
hoog-ee-ah'-ee-no; from 5199; to have sound health, i.e. be well (in body); figuratively,
to be uncorrupt (true in doctrine):--be in health, (be safe and) sound, (be) whole(-some).
Doctrine: didaskalia,
did-as-kal-ee'-ah; from 1320;
instruction (the function or the information):--doctrine, learning, teaching. Perhaps my definition of "faith" wasn't so clear after all, so lets see the proper definition:
Faith: pistis,
pis'-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction
(of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension,
the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. Now before you try and tell me that I singled out the definition, pulled verses out of context, wrangled over words or played the semantic's card, then may I suggest that you read it extremely carefully this time because I will show you plainly how 1 Timothy 4:1 clearly refers to the truth of the Gospel (The Gospel is Truth) and not personal belief or
possessing faith. I will begin with your favored NAS version:
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away (aphistemi) from the faith (pistis), paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. (1 Timothy 4:1)
(NIV) - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon
the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
(KJV) - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from
the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
(NAS) - But The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from
the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
(ASV) - But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from
the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.
(ESV) - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from
the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.
Nearly 99% of all Bible translations uses "THE FAITH", not "THEIR FAITH, "
THE" is not a personal pronoun, thus it is definite that "the faith" refers to religious truth OR the GOSPEL, which can mean either the "Good Message" or the teachings of Christ! And as I stated in my previous post, the word for (Fall away; shall depart from) is "aphistemi" [868] which means to remove or withdraw oneself from. Now before you state that it means to lose your faith then may I suggest you take a look at how it is used in the context found in these passages:
- Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed[868]not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
- Luke 4:13 - And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed[868] from him for a season.
- Acts 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed[868] from him.
- Acts 15:38 - But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed[868] from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
- Acts 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed[868] from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
- Acts 22:29 - Then straightway they departed[868] from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.
- 2 Corinthians 12:8 - For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart[868] from me.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart[868] from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
- (SAME BOOK) 1 Timothy 6:5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself[868]
Now in the
same Book of (1 TIMOTHY) the words "THE FAITH" is used, and lets see in what context they are used to further establish my thesis.
a). Holding the mystery of
the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
b). Unto Timothy, my own son in
the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
c). For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in
the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
d).
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
e). But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (
arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept)
the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)
f). For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(
apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from
the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
g). Which some
professing have erred(
astocheo:deviate from)concerning
the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)
Each and every verse implies that "THE FAITH" clearly means
(THE GOSPEL) or truthfulness of God. None of those verses implicate a "personal faith" or a "possessing faith", otherwise it would have used "THEIR FAITH" as found in these passages:
- Matthew 9:2 - And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith [4102]said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
- Mark 2:5 - When Jesus saw their faith[4102], he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
- Luke 5:20 - And when he saw their faith[4102], he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Not everyone who goes to Church or hears the message of the Gospel possess faith. There are many who go to church every Sunday and hear the sermons of their pastors and withdraw from the church for another doctrine which may be more appealing to them. Paul uses the term "latter times" or when churches are prevalent. The Great Apostasy precedes the appearing of the "Man of sin; Son of Perdition", this can be a momentary separation of (false converts) and (genuine believers) because false prophets and those who teach false doctrines cannot deceive the elect, or lead them away from Christ (Matt. 24:24). God indeed has a way of distinguishing false converts from genuine believers (2 Tim. 2:19) A profession of faith in Christ does not necessarily mean that one actually possesses faith.
OK, I'm not going to quote entire chapters to prove my point, I will however quote the bolded section of the passage you quoted in your attempt to refute me:
For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." NAS (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Aineo wrote:Now before you jump on the “if” in vs. 20 and claim that genuine believers cannot again be entangled and overcome take a long hard look at how Peter uses “if” in vs. 4 through 10. God did judge the angels, those living prior to the flood, the people in the cities of the plain, and did rescue Lot.
That passage doesn't say anything about losing ones Salvation!
That passage in context is referring to false teachers who
deny the Lord and
promote damnable heresies (v. 1). It is obviously not referring to "Genuine Believers" or those who are saved, it is CLEARLY describing deceivers and hypocrites. If anyone has the audacity to say that the interpretation of the passage refers to the "saved" who lose their salvation then they are completely and utterly taking that passage out of context. The very mention that "the
latter end is worse with them than the
beginning" and "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" clearly does not mean that they were once saved and now are lost. They are described as dogs and pigs who were
unchanged (v. 22). A deceiver and hypocrite can know the way of righteousness but never apply it to their lives, which this passage clearly describes, i.e., they may know the Gospel and even teach it but in their hearts deny Christ. Furthermore when is Gods children ever referred to as dogs? The word for dog is "kuon" which is the same word used in Revelation 22:15 and refers to immoral people. Conditional security adherents state that we were once dogs, however that passage does not say that we were once dogs but states that those who return to their sinful lifestyles are like dogs. (2 Peter 2:20-22) is parallel to (Matthew 12:43-45) where it describes a man being rid of an evil spirit, the evil spirit returned and discovered that his house was empty, swept, and garnished. Because this unclean spirit could not find rest, it returned with seven other wicked spirits worst than himself, the results? The (final state) or condition has resulted in an even greater degeneration as with (2 Pet. 2:20-22), what was the reason for this? The problem was that the house was well swept but "
Unoccupied", it is only when we invite Christ to be the honored guest and head of the home are we considered saved!
Philippians 2:12-18
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 And you too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
NAS
Aineo wrote:Why did Paul instruct the Philippians to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" if their salvation was assured because of eternal security? Just when does taking personal responsibility for life's decision go out the window in your theology?
I have answered this before, "Work out your Salvation" does not imply that we are to work for Salvation in order to obtain it. The Greek phrase "work out" denotes the manifestation, expression, or actualization of something one already possesses. The Conditional Security adherents for that passage is just as bad as saying that we are saved by works!!!
Aineo, if you reject my exegesis, then you most likely do not want to hear what the scriptures explicitly states in the correct context, but rather personal opinion and interpretation that is apt to Conditional Security adherents. I'm not here to deceive anyone or appeal to what sounds suitable to the doctrine I uphold while neglecting what the scriptures clearly teach, I use to debate against OSASavers and diligently searched the scriptures for myself to determine what the Word of God clearly teaches, and no Conditional Security adherent can definitively prove that someone who have actually obtained Salvation can actually lose it!
God Bless!