ArchivedOSAS revisitedAineo wrote:The apostles "fell away" because they feared persecution not because they fell away from faith in Jesus Christ. And you are wrangling over words and not discussing the context of a full teaching. Matthew 24:4-13
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
Those Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24 don't hide from fear and then return they actively persecute those who remain, which does not apply to what Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 26. (Omega) wrote:To state that Matt. 26 is merely a prophecy and should not be used to determine the correct interpretation of a word is a poor excuse, why?
You keep telling me to read your posts and then you fail to read mine or you choose to leave out words. I did not post that Matthew 26 is a prophecy I posted Matthew 26 is the fulfillment of a prophecy, which states the sheep will scatter when the shepherd is struck down.
You never run out, do you? "Those in Matthew 24 don't hide from fear and then return"? As I recall it was you who used the Strongs Concordance to prove that "offended" (fall away:NAS) referred to a departure from the faith. I simply responded using "Strongs Concordance" that the same word for "offended" used in Matt. 24 is found also in Matt. 26!
Aineo wrote:As to your analysis of John 15, how did the branch become part of the vine in the first place? Once again you are interpreting Scripture in light of a favored doctrine and not in like of Scripture. What does "abide" mean? It means to live in and men can by free will choose to live outside of Jesus after they are saved thereby becoming apostate.
Thats not what you said, you said that passage states that a believer can cease from producing fruits which I have disproved, so now you resort to your usual tactic of switching the basis of the argument. Those with free will who choose to live outside of Jesus and choose to walk away are those who do not abide in the vine. It is basically the same as bringing forth fruits and then becoming barren. Thats not what that passage says, it says that the barren and withered branch is discarded, not those that produce fruits. Those that produce fruits are "pruned" to bring forth more fruits. Either the branch branch produces fruit or is doesn't! It doesn't bring forth fruit and somehow become barren, because it is not found in that passage, it is pruned to increase production. How did the branch become part of the vine in the first place? Try considering that verse in context, a withered branch is obviously someone who doesn't belong to Christ because it is "discarded" and remains barren. If a withered branch being part of the vine is considered a saved person, it would not have been discarded and cast into the fire to be burned. It is cast into the fire because it is fruitless, do you consider a withered, fruitless branch someone who is saved?
Aineo wrote:Okay since you want to wrangle over words. Lets start with NT:4624
skandalizo, which is used 30 times in the KJV NT. Tell me (Omega) how can ones right eye "offend" (Matthew 5:29) or how can a hand or foot "offend" (Matthew 18:8)? "Skandalizo" can mean "cause to stumble" or "depart". In Mathew 24 the word means to "depart" and in Matthew 26 it means to "cause to stumble". NT:4624
skandalizoo;
to put a stumbling-block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall; to be a stumbling-block
a. to entice to sin Matthew 5:29
b. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
c. to cause one to feel displeasure at a thing; to make indignant: Matthew 15:12
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)
Now lets look at: NT:868
1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
a. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
a. to go away, to depart from anyone
b. to desert, withdraw from one
c. to fall away, become faithless
d. to shun, flee from
e. to cease to vex one
f. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
g. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... ubmit=Find
Now: Luke 8:13
13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. NAS
How does this correlate to: 1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS
There is no correlation between the two passages since in Luke 8 men leave due to temptation and in 1 Timothy men follow deceiftul spirits and doctrines of demons. You are trying to compare apples and oranges based on one Greek word while at the same time ignoring the context of the word's use.
Tell me (Omega) according to you when is a person saved? When they receive the word with joy and are baptised? If so then those in Luke 8:13 were saved and then departed because of tempation.
Now since you just love to use the phrase "saving faith" show me where this is used in Scripture.
Again with the "Wrangling over words"? Are you trying to frustrate me? You want to talk about failure to interpret a word in the light of context, this is exactly what you have demonstrated. Both Matt. 5:29 and 18:8 DO NOT refer to what you call departation from the faith. Both Lk. 8:13 and 1 Tim. 4:1-5 uses the same greek word for "fall away", regardless of falling away to deceitful spirits or temptation, BOTH refers to a (falling away), according to YOU as previously stated in your posts. The point you fail to see is those verse prove that these people who fall away were actually saved to begin with, therefore your argument in comparing Matt. 5:29 and 18:8 to Lk. 8:13 and 1 Tim 4:1-5 is completely irrelevant, so whose the one comparing apples and oranges Aineo? Instead you bypass my point by switching arguments. Receiving the word of joy does not constitute as salvation, what your trying to say is that everyone who receives the word with joy are saved which is ludicrous, then you want to add baptism to that verse! People can receive the word "with joy" but fail to cat upon the Gospel, i.e., repentance, confession, etc... How many guest members do you see in Churches who "receive the word with joy" and upon leaving the church revert to their sinful lifestyle? When was this person saved?
God Bless!
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