ArchivedOSAS revisitedAineo wrote:(Omega), all you have done is avoid the issue. In Hebrews 10:39 the author cannot be using a coporate "we" unless he personally knows every person who reads his epistle since no human being can speak for every other human being who reads what he writes. The obvious understaning of the "we" are those who accompany the writer who was probably Paul. Let's use some common sense and not wishful thinking.
Also you keep coming back to believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit, who is received by faith. What can break that seal? The answer is obvious; walk away from the faith or become apostate. So what is your response? Those who fail away from the faith never possessed "saving faith", which is an opinion that you cannot base on Scripture. This is especially true since Paul writes in plain language:
Go back are re-read what I stated, you have yet to show any proof using scripture that those who fell away were once saved. I made a very simple comparison "based on scripture" that your quoted verses did NOT prove that those who fell away were saved and you have ignored this. I will restate it again:
(Omega) wrote:And as for Matthew 24 and 1 Timothy 4 would be a contradiction to Gods word which is an impossibility. I notice that you quote (Matt. 24:10) using the NAS version which BTW is an outstanding version, however in the Greek grammatical rendering, the word "offended"{skandalizo}which the NAS translates as "fall away" is also used in the EXACT context of (Matt. 26:31) which reads:
Matthew 26:31 - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Now we know for a FACT that the Disciples did not lose their Salvation because the atonement of Christ's sacrifice had not been fulfilled yet, and secondly we are absolutely certain that the disciples DID NOT completely depart from their faith, therefore Matt. 24:10 does not affirm that Genuine Believers will depart from their faith and somehow lose their Salvation. And there is no verse in 1 Tim. 4 that shows that Salvation can be lost.
Can you prove that those who "fall away" (Matt. 24:10) which is used most often by you were ever saved to begin with? On the other hand you said:
Aineo wrote: OSAS labels Jesus a liar since Jesus plainly states that some will fall away. OSAS also labels Paul and the Holy Spirit liars:
What is a lie is stating that these people who "fall away" are those who once had Salvation. To state that Matt 24:10 refers to believers losing their salvation is an opinion and not biblical truth which can be proven. Did the disciples lose their salvation? Furthermore, I have fully backed up the doctrine of Eternal Security. Either you are deliberately choosing to completely ignore each and every scripture posted or you are obtuse. How is it that anyone who is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit become faithless? if the Holy Spirit is to guide the believer into "all truth" and is the "Spirit of Truth" and remains sealed within the person, why would this person choose to walk away while indwelled with the Holy Spirit being sealed within?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[/color]NAS
1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS
Aineo, 1 Timothy 4:1 "shall depart from" and Luke 8:13 "fall away" uses the same greek word {aphistemi} and as I stated before and I will say it again. In Luke 8:13 it uses the same word "believe" {pisteuo} as in those who believe for a while and "fall away" {aphistemi} in James 2:19 where it states that the demons (SAME WORD) "believe". Thus Luke 8:13 does not prove that those who "fall away" were once saved and neither does 1 Timothy 4:1! 2 Thess 2 uses the words "a falling away" {apostasia} which basically means to "fall away" as in Luke 8:13 in the Greek language, this does not prove that these who fall away are those who once obtained Salvation because we know that those who had no root and "believed"{pisteuo} for a while just as the demons did, "fell away" .
Aineo wrote: So who would deceive the body of Christ? Those who teach unScriptural doctrines like OSAS that lull some who willfully sin into a false sense of eternal security. It is only those who overcome and endure to the end that will be saved.
That is so old, anyone who willfully sins clearly shows that they have an unregenerate heart (2 Cor. 5:17), so that accusation is null and void. Who is deceiving others? It is those who teach that Salvation can be lost to those who Genuinely put their absolute faith in Christ and not a "self-professed" Christian.
Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS
"He that shall endure unto the end", how does this disprove Eternal Security? Jesus is more likely speaking of the promise of perseverance, how does this passage prove that a saved person can lose their salvation? And where between the beginning and the end does this person actually possess salvation? "He that shall endure unto the end" is obviously someone who is saved, but where does that passage actually state that if he fails to endure to the end that he was saved to begin with?
Aineo wrote: You can put your faith in manmade doctrine all you want, but unless you have something more than rhetoric to show that Jesus did not know what He sas talking about I will accept His word over OSAS any day of the week.
I don't put my faith in a manmade doctrine, I put my absolute trust in what the Scriptures clearly teach and you chosen to ignore this. Jesus indeed knew exactly what He was talking about and so does the Bible as a "Whole", and it does not teach that a person who once possessed salvation can lose it. I will accept Gods word over Conditional Security at any time. If there is any doctrine that is misleading, it is the Doctrine of Conditional Security.
God Bless!
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