Aineo wrote:First of all I am not going to rehash this thread,
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 28&start=0 where you made outrageous claims and refused to respond to the facts I posted regarding the APA's use of the faulty Kinsey report and Hooker's less than scientific study in its decision to remove homosexuality from the DSMIII.
It is on that thread where you will find the quote from Spitzer you deny is true. You will also find sources from members of the APA and gay sites that support my claim that gay activism was in part used by the APA in making its 1973 decision.
More totally irrelevant rants about your reference to the APA's "faulty" studies. The matter of fact is that you can't prove that homosexuality is pathological regardless of what the APA says. Your continuous attempts to rebut the APA's statements mean absolutely nothing in the context of this argument. This must be the fourth time I am trying to communicate that to you. Amazingly, you fail to understand...
again.
I wonder if you really read the site concerning Dr. Spitzer. From that article:
Many interventions aimed at changing sexual orientation have succeeded only in reducing or eliminating homosexual behavior rather than in creating or increasing heterosexual attractions. They have, in effect, deprived individuals of their capacity for sexual response to others. These "therapies" have often exposed their victims to electric shocks or nausea-producing drugs while showing them pictures of same-sex nudes (such techniques appear to be less common today than in the past).
Shock theraphy, aversion therapy, and chemicle therapy are not and never have been part of the ex-gay movement and are no longer used by reputable therapists as these techniques are a proven failure, also these techniques were used by many APA members.
You know, why don't you tell that to someone who actually cares. As far as I'm concerned, none of what you have said applies to my points.
Also from your sited article:
The Spitzer study was immediately criticized on several grounds. For example, the sample consisted predominantly of activists recruited from "ex-gay" and anti-gay organizations. About two thirds were referred to Spitzer by so-called "ex-gay ministries," such as Exodus, or by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). Of those who participated, 78 percent had spoken publicly in favor of efforts to convert homosexuals to heterosexuality.
What is interesting concerning this criticism of Spitzer is Hooker used the same principles only with gay men in her "landmark" study used by the APA, so it appears that when the APA uses this technique it is okay but if someone actually researching the efficacy of counseling homosexuals who want to change uses it the study is flawed.
:roll: I didn't know you needed to be spoonfed, Aineo. Let me reiterate my original statement regarding the link I provided:
"Even Dr. Spitzer himself conceded that the chance of sexual orientation was "pretty low" and that all of his participants were unusually religious."
Now let me show you the part of the page I was reference incase you are too slow to catch on:
"Dr. Spitzer did not claim that his findings could be generalized to the gay and lesbian population at large. Indeed, he was quoted in the New York Times as saying that, despite the findings from his study, the number of homosexuals who could successfully become heterosexual was likely to be "pretty low." He also conceded that participants in his study were "unusually religious" and were not necessarily representative of most gay men and lesbians in the United States."
THERE! A spot on the site which backed what I had said about Dr. Spitzer's comments on his study.
That's it. Why you decided to drag on about the site's mention of APA is beyond me. Either you were too incompetent to realize the intent of my link or you are actively attempting to dishonestly bring in irrelevant points about my argument. Which is it?
Also from the site you linked to:
The second APA paper, presented by Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder, reported findings from a study of 202 homosexuals who were recruited through the Internet and direct mailings to groups advocating conversion therapy. Most of the participants (178, or 88%) reported that efforts to change their sexual orientation had failed. Only 6 (3%) achieved what the researchers considered a heterosexual shift. Drs. Shidlo and Schroeder also reported that many respondents were harmed by the attempt to change.
Well, what do you know a study that used the same technique your are being critical of Spitzer for using! Can you spell hypocrite?
Again, more attempts to argue something I did not even assert. I have said this over and over again. Until you provide conclusive evidence, there is no reason why anyone should believe that change sexual orientation is feasible. Can you stay on topic? Please? Really, is that too much to ask for?
<snip> More rants about honest Joe Dallas and UC Davis being biased but really, I don't care whether you think accredited universities have been hijacked by gay activists since this is beside the point as well. </snip>
Now, your lack of civility is calling all ex-gays liars and those who have changed as only repressing or suppressing their true sexuality. In spite of your hateful rhetoric people can and have changed their sexual orientation and since not all ex-gays have used the services of psychiatrists and psychologists the APA’s have no idea of the number of homosexuals who have successfully changed and are now married with children and happier than they were before.
As far as I'm concerned, you're just a right-wing loudspeaker with nothing to offer but empty rhetoric. I ask AGAIN, are you going to provide something substantial or not?
RALEIGH, NC--In a pending court case which has important implications for anyone espousing conservative biblical views on homosexuality, the director of an Exodus ministry is taking his former employer to court for unlawful discrimination.
Tim Wilkins, director of CROSS Ministry in Raleigh, says he was unfairly terminated from his position at The Raleigh News & Observer in 1997 just three weeks after the paper ran a front-page story about his ministry as a former homosexual to others struggling with homosexuality.
At the time, Wilkins had worked for 14 months as a direct-sales supervisor. The newspaper says he was fired because of poor performance--although he had received a “commendable” job rating shortly before his dismissal.
http://www.exodus-international.org/new ... 1205.shtml
Unless ex-gays can be assured of their ethical treatment no psychologist or psychiatrist will get responses from men and women who have never availed themselves of professional help in overcoming homosexuality, therefore your appeals to “anecdotal” studies from ex-ex-gays are just as unreliable and biased as you claim Spitzer’s study to be.
Let's see, some irrelevant news article about some guy who got fired and more bashing of other studies I made no reference to. You're all over the place, aren't you Aineo? Post more irrelevant comments again, and I will be forced to filter through the crap that doesn't belong on this thread. I grow impatient of your continuous red herrings. Don't be surprised if I only respond to comments that address my points