Religious Cults & False Prophets~ Discussions and DebatesPaul and the LawIf you feel that way, it is your right...
So you call me carnal because I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. Endurance wrote:Aineo, may I ask what do you think Christ meant when he said this:
Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
To me this does not say that the Sabbath is for the Jews only. But rather until heaven and earth pass away, that nothing from the law shall be changed. Do only the Jews celebrate Him as creator? Now if the Sabbath is the day he consecrated as holy because he rested from his works on it, shouldn't those who honor him as creator honor the day He made holy in reverence of Him creating the world?
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=20
Do you see how you change your position from thread to thread? On the Which Sabbath thread you state that "nothing from the law shall be changed" and then you post that Jesus fulfilled the Law since it foreshadowed Him and therefore we do not need to keep parts of the Law. On this thread you posted: Endurance wrote:I will go through Romans 6 verse by verse and examine the content.... Keeping this in mind as we go through it.
1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Paul poses the question should we sin (disobey the law) since we are under grace and then answers the question NO. And asks how can we who are supposed to be dead to sin continue to sin.
So now lets look at a couple of the laws found in the Law, which is the 1st 5 books of the Bible or Genesis through Deuteronomy. If you disagree with this then ask any Torah observant Jew what is the Law according to Judaism. Leviticus 24:16
16'Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.
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Leviticus 24:17-23
17'And if a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. 18'And the one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. 19'And if a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21'Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death. 22'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.' " 23 Then Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. Thus the sons of Israel did, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
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Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.
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Now lets look at what men are allowed to eat. Genesis 1:29-31
29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food ";and it was so. 31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. NAS
God's original plan for man was to eat nothing but vegetation. Genesis 1:29-31
29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food ";and it was so. 31 And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
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Genesis 9:1-5
9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the terror of you shall be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. 3 Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. 4 Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 And surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man. NAS
After the flood all animals became food for mankind, the only prohibition was eating blood.
In Leviticus we read: Leviticus 11:1-8
11:1 The LORD spoke again to Moses and to Aaron, saying to them, 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth. 3'Whatever divides a hoof, thus making split hoofs, and chews the cud, among the animals, that you may eat. 4'Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these, among those which chew the cud, or among those which divide the hoof: the camel, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you. 5'Likewise, the rock badger, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 6 the rabbit also, for though it chews cud, it does not divide the hoof, it is unclean to you; 7 and the pig, for though it divides the hoof, thus making a split hoof, it does not chew cud, it is unclean to you. 8'You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you
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I did not quote all the dietary laws as they are found in both Leviticus and Deuteronomy. But notice that only the sons of Israel have their diet restricted to clean and unclean foods. So what parts of the Law do gentiles transgress by eating pork, lobster, and etc., only those that apply only to the Jews. So how does a gentile transgress the law since what many Christians view as the Law was given only to one nation and that nation was the Hebrew nation? Romans 6:12-14
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace. NAS
You have posted that Jesus fulfilled the Law, and then use 1 John 3:4 to show that transgressing the law is sin. If the Law has been fulfilled in one Man how can we transgress that Law? Matthew 22:37-40
37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
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Romans 13:1-10
13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
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Galatians 5:14-15
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, " You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
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James 2:1-9
2:1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
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Now lets look at the Passover. Leviticus 23:4-8
4'These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. 6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8'But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.' "
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1 Corinthians 5:1-8
5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. NAS
What feast is Paul referring to? Galatians 3:23-29
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. NAS
Have you studied the promises given to Abraham? Genesis 17:1-8
17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,
"I am God Almighty;
Walk before Me, and be blameless.
2 "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you,
And I will multiply you exceedingly."
3 And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you,
And you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.
5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I will make you the father of a multitude of nations.
6 "And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." NAS
Only one of those “multitude of nations” was the nation of Israel. By God’s grace through faith in Jesus all nations are blessed through Abraham and are his heirs through that faith. This promise was given 400+ years before the Law given to the son’s of IsraelChristians are not under the Levitical Law so when Christians transgress that law they are not sinning. The Law that we can transgress and sin is: John 13:31-35
31 When therefore he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; 32 if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately. 33 "Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You shall seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, I now say to you also, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.' 34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NAS
Now lets look at Galatians. Galatians 4:21-5:12
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking: for these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
"Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband."
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
"Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
Galatians 5
5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 Would that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
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Galatians 5:1 finishes Paul’s teaching in Galatians 4 and is transitional to what is found in Galatians 5:2 and following. The First Bible With Chapter And Verse Divisions
The first entire Bible in which these chapter and verse divisions were used was Stephen’s edition of the Latin Vulgate (1555). The first English New Testament to have both chapter and verse divisions was the Geneva Bible (1560). Fortunately Jewish scholars have followed the way of dividing the Hebrew Scripture into chapters and verses.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/273.html
If your only basis for advocating that Galatians 5:1 introduces vs. 2 is the chapter divisions found in modern Bibles you need to know these divisions are arbitrary man made divisions. Galatians 4 is dealing with the law as a whole and 5:1 is the logical conclusion of this discussion since in Galatians 5:2 Paul addresses a specific requirement found in the law that actually preceded the Law by over 400 years. Abraham was the person who received God’s command to be circumcised. Genesis 17:9-14
9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. 13 A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
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