beads,
You say: “However, if what [you] are saying is true, can you help me understand some puzzling portions of Scripture?”
I say: The ultimate answer to that question is not up to me for what you can or cannot understand regarding the Bible is not in my hands nor dependant upon any of my abilities. What I will gladly do is pray for you to understand just the same as I pray for me to understand and then along with that I will be more than happy to provide further reasoning and expounding on the subject and the scriptures. (Romans 9:1-3; 10:1-2; 1Corinthians 3:5-8; Philippians 1:9)
You say: “The Bible seems to indicate in a few places that all those who will become saved have been chosen before the creation of the world.”
I say: To me the key words in the above statement are “seems to”. The fact is that the Bible does not actually say what your statement says. It “seems to” only because of the past poor and inconsistent translation and rendering of older Bible versions of several different Greek words into only one English word unavoidably leading to much misunderstanding and confusion that has survived till now and because of the bias in favor of those old confusing and contradictory misunderstandings found in the renderings of some newer Bibles.
The statement, “founding of the world,” found in Ephesians 1:4 and Revelation 17:8 is also found at Matthew 13:35; 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Hebrews 4:3; 9:26, 1Peter 1:20, and Revelation 13:8. A check of all the different printed Bible versions one may have available along with Bible study software or web sites that allow for many Bible versions to be compared reveals more than enough variation in the renderings of those verses to make one fairly certain that something other than unbiased translation is at work. No wonder you and also many others are puzzled by what the Bible “seems to” say.
My argument has already been made and you have replied, “I do not believe I can refute it.” It would only be time consuming but not at all difficult to prepare just as much information about the phrase “founding of the world” or any other scripture that “seems to” say something other than what I have already proved and presented in this thread. The question is, “What would that accomplish?” At this point there is a real danger of getting lost in all of it and missing the point. For both of our sakes I do not wish that to happen. So I will keep my answer brief and I will continue to reiterate the points already made while trying to reason with you so as to cultivate a receptive, responsive heart in the hope that “God will [not] allow [or have to give you up] to follow false teaching [and to] believe a lie” about Him. (2Thessalonians 2:11, New Life Version, Bible in Basic English)
OK here goes: At Ephesians 1:4 and Revelation 17:8 the phrase “founding of the world” is from the two-word Greek phrase: katabole´ (Strong’s G2602) ko´smos (Strong’s G2889) and literally means “throwing down [seed/semen] of world.” The basic meaning of the Greek ko´smos is “order” or “arrangement.” And to the extent that the concept of beauty is bound up with order and symmetry, ko´smos also conveys that thought and therefore was often used by the Greeks to mean “adornment,” especially as regards women. It is used in that way at 1 Peter 3:3. Hence also the English word “cosmetic.” The related verb kosme´o has the sense of ‘putting in order’ at Matthew 25:7 and that of ‘adorning’ elsewhere. (Matthew 12:44; 23:29; Luke 11:25; 21:5; 1Timothy 2:9; Titus 2:10; 1Peter 3:5; Revelation 21:2, 19) The adjective ko´smios, at 1Timothy 2:9 and 3:2, describes that which is “well-arranged” or “orderly.”
Evidently because the universe manifests order, Greek philosophers at times applied ko´smos to the entire visible creation. However, there was no real unanimity of thought among them, some restricting it to the celestial bodies only and others using it for the whole universe. The use of ko´smos to describe the material creation as a whole appears in some Apocryphal writings (Wisdom 9:9; 11:17), these being written during the period when Greek philosophy was making inroads in many Jewish areas. But in the inspired writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures this sense is virtually, perhaps entirely, absent. Some texts may appear to use the term in that sense, such as the account of the apostle’s address to the Athenians at the Areopagus. Paul there said: “The God who made the world [form of ko´smos] and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.” (Acts 17:24) Since the use of ko´smos as meaning the universe was current among the Greeks, Paul might have employed the term in that sense. Even here, however, it is entirely possible that he used it as it is most commonly used in the Scriptures—referring to some aspect of the ordering of humans or to the world of mankind.
There is an undeniable connection of the Greek word ko´smos with the world of mankind which, when combined with the use of the word katabole´ instead of the Greek word meaning creation, kti´zo, aids one to come to a proper understanding of what is really meant by the phrase “the founding of the world,” as referred to in the above mentioned texts. These texts speak of certain things as taking place ‘from the founding of the world.’ These include the ‘shedding of the blood of the prophets’ from the time of Abel onward, a ‘kingdom prepared,’ and ‘names being written on the scroll of life.’ (Luke 11:50-51; Matthew 25:34; Revelation 13:8; 17:8; compare Matthew 13:35; Hebrews 9:26.) Such things relate to human life and activity, and hence “the founding of the world” must relate to the beginning of mankind, not to the material universe as a whole. Also, Hebrews 4:3 shows that God’s creative works were, not started but rather, “finished from the founding of the world.” Since Eve was evidently the last of God’s earthly creative works, the world’s founding could not precede her. In addition, further research using concordances, lexicons, dictionaries and other study aids reveal that the use of the English words “creation” or “creating” is, at the very least, “a stretch” that is not supported by the way katabole´ is used in the Scriptures. For example, Vincent’s Word Studies in its comments on the use of katabole´ at Hebrews 11:11 states: “In every other instance in N.T. καταβολή means foundation, and appears in the phrase καταβολὴ κόσμου foundation of the world. Originally it means throwing down; hence, the depositing of the male seed in the womb.” Also, Robertson’s Word Pictures in its comments on the use of katabole´ at Ephesians 1:4 states: “from kataballō, to fling down, used of the deposit of seed, the laying of a foundation.” Let me repeat it: the use of the English words “creation” or “creating” is, at the very minimum, “a stretch” that is not supported by the way katabole´ is used in any of its occurrences in the Scriptures.
Therefore “the founding of the world” need not be taken to mean the beginning of the creation of the material universe, nor does the expression “before the founding of the world” (John 17:5, 24; Ephesians 1:4; 1Peter 1:20) refer to a point of time prior to the creation of the material universe. Rather, these expressions evidently relate to the time when the human race was ‘founded’ through the first human pair, Adam and Eve, who, outside of Eden, began to conceive seed, founding the world of mankind, that could benefit from God’s provisions for deliverance from inherited sin.
Jesus Christ also linked “founding of the world” with that time frame, saying: “That the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be required from this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah.” (Luke 11:50, 51) Jesus thus shows that the spilling of the blood of all the prophets from the founding of the world began with Abel and thus speaks of Abel as living at the “founding of the world.” Abel being a son of Adam and Eve, the “founding of the world” manifestly must refer to the time when the first human pair became parents to children, thereby producing a world of mankind. From this world of mankind Jesus Christ could take away the inherited sin by his sacrificial death as the Lamb of God. (Genesis 4:2-11, 25; Matthew 23:35; Hebrews 11:4; 12:24) So it must have been after Adam and Eve sinned and before children were born to them that God purposed to produce a class of persons, the Bride of Christ, to be heavenly co-rulers with his Son. This was about 4,000 years before Paul wrote his letter to Timothy and so could well be spoken of as being “before times long lasting.”
You say: “How do these verses jive with the idea that God does not know who will be saved? The only way I can reconcile these verses with what you are saying is if the verses are not to be applied individually, i.e. when Paul says "He has chosen us", he doesn't mean "He chose me, and He chose you, and you, and you, ....", but rather that he means He chose the group as a whole, without knowing who would be in that group, and He set them aside for salvation. So before the foundation of the world, God said something like "Alright.... everyone who is going to be saved will be holy and blameless before Me, and they will be saved through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, and I'm gonna write their names in this book". Would this be a proper interpretation? I'm no Greek scholar, so I don't know if this interpretation would fit in with the original texts.”
I say: Your reconciliation is pretty much ‘right on.’ It might be helpful to you to acquire a Bible version that indicates when second person pronouns are plural; not always but sometimes this helps to recognize when it is a group being referred to or addressed. The pronoun, “you,” in 2Thessolonians 2:13 is plural. Additionally, John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes says: “2Th 2:13 - God hath from the beginning - Of your hearing the gospel. Chosen you to salvation - Taken you out of the world, and placed you in the way to glory.”
And so on and so on with every objection or challenge or puzzlement or “seems to” Scripture each having an explanation supported by Scripture along with understandable reasoning.
I have answered your questions and responded to your requests, will you please now respond to the points I have made and to the questions I have asked and the requests I have made of you?
For example (the following are repeated from above):
You say: “God exists outside of time. His knowledge of what is going to happen is not based on Him being able to tell the future. It is based on the fact that everything that happens, happens for Him in the present. He knows "beforehand" what is going to happen, because it is happening in the present to Him.”
I say: Really! What scripture(s) reveals these astonishing “statements of fact” about God?
Again I repeat what I said before: “For God’s ‘knowing’ to be without possibility of error then what he ‘knows’ must be absolutely correct and that necessarily removes free will, right? Will you please answer this simple yes or no question?
You say: “You seem to be saying that God doesn't know who will accept Him, so that's why He offers it to everyone.”
I say: How else can the love and the invitation be “unconditional?”
You say: “You believe that the call to be saved is unconditional because you understand that the character of God demands that that call be unconditional.”
I say: Absolutely, don’t you?
Will you please answer that for me?
Now referring to paragraphs 11 and 12 in the long post above: If I am wrong and you are right about God’s exercise of foreknowledge, will you please provide me a Scriptural explanation of why he misrepresented the “facts” regarding his coming “to know” things.
Finally, is the following statement true or false?
“If it is unfair for God to predestine Pharaoh or anyone else to an unrighteous course then, by the same standard of fairness, it is also unfair for God to predestine Moses or anyone else to a righteous course! That means that some of the survivors of the Columbine shootings were sadly mistaken when they said, “God has a plan for me.” If God had an individual ‘plan’ for their life then God also had an individual ‘plan’ for Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and God is responsible for imperfection in all its forms!”