Aineo wrote:lemmein wrote: Hateful? I did not claim that sexual orientation cannot be changed. I said that there is little evidence that it can be. On the other hand, you have provided no evidence that it can be.
Yes, hateful. You have called all ex-gays liars, and assumed a lot based only on your prejudices and bigotry, which is what you object to in society in general.
I'm only going on what I have. If I have no evidence for successful sexual orientation change and you're going to shoot your mouth off about success, don't think that I'm going to take you seriously at all.
Although there are a few ex-gays who have sold out to the political religious right and disseminate bad information concerning the gay community to make the blanket statements you have made are hateful and outright lies. I did miss one post you made and what was your reaction when I mentioned this? You questioned my integrity and truthfulness.
I don't see how my statements were supposedly 'hateful and outright lies'. Everything I have said about the ex-gay community in your block of quotations can be backed up. They have consistently fail to document their work, lied about their success rates, and promote 'success' stories with strange historical backgrounds. You've just blatantly dismissed them as lies without any attempt to show the opposite.
I have a right to question your integrity and truthfulness for the mere fact that you have been really awful in making the case of sexual orientation change.
lemmein wrote:You continually use the tactic of using Camperio's inconclusive research to somehow conclude that sexual orientation is innate. Then, you claim that because it is innate, that it can be changed, without A.) sufficiently showing how Camperio's inconclusive studies show that homosexuality is innate, B.) sufficiently arguing that innateness equates to immutability, and C.) showing any evidence of ex-gay groups' claims to success.
You are misrepresenting what I posted.
Even if the study conducted by the University of Padua can be replicated and verified with further research, the conclusion reached by this study indicates:
"We know we've only explained 20% of the pattern," says Camperio-Ciani. The remaining 80% could perhaps be due to formative sexual and social experiences during early life or even childhood, he speculates.
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1295
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 08:01 am
And how am I misrepresenting what you wrote? You're using Camperio-Ciani's research to back your assertion that homosexuality is not innate and his research is inconclusive at best. It's still using inconclusive data to make a presumptious conclusion as yours.
That's nice. But you still accused me of forcing teens to come out when I condoned no such actions. What a way to avoid my highlight of your false accusations and assumptions.
Another misrepresentation, or an outright lie to use you terminology. Here is what I posted:
Now lets get back to gay teen suicides for a moment. I posted earlier that gay activists must take some responsibility for the gay teen suicide rate. Now what adult in their right mind would encourage gay teens to come out at a time in their lives they are dealing with major physiological and emotional changes? National Coming Out day is nothing more than adults exploiting children for a political agenda.
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:31 am
As to coming out and telling the world you are gay when you are a teen opens ones up to additional problems associated with puberty. Teens do not have the emotional maturity to handle the uneducated prejudice of their peers, which is based more on the fear of the unknown than anything else. So I will repeat, gay activists are manipulating and exploiting children for political reasons by encouraging immature teens to bare it all with society. Self-acceptance comes from within, not from society and coming out before one is emotionally mature can lead to suicide faster than waiting until later in life when most individuals have come to terms with their sexuality.
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 05:29 pm
You have taken these parts of my post as a personal attack aimed at you. As I posted earlier this thread and topic are not about you. You are appealing to your personal (and limited) experiences and when I do the same you cry foul.
No, it is an attack aimed at all 'gay activists'. You HAVE accused 'gay activists' of being irresponsible for manipulation and exploitation reasons when you don't have any back up for such an assertion and made the presumption that 'gay activists' encourages teenagers to come out when they are mentally not ready, which is not true.
I don't see how I am misrepresenting your posts at all. Funny how you don't even tell me how I am misrepresenting your posts. You just simply say that I am, while providing blocks of quotations.
You want statistics for those who have changed their sexual orientation?
One hundred and forty persons (102 males and 38 females) of an original study group of 248 individuals involved with the Christian ex-gay group, Exodus International, returned follow-up surveys that showed some remarkable data:
· Fully 94% reported that they had changed or were still pursuing change in their sexual orientation, from homosexual to heterosexual;
· 63% reported success in the behavioral change definition of the project (no oral-genital or anal homo-sex for the past year);
· 88% of those who did not succeed according to the homo-behavioral abstinence criteria were still pursuing change and had not given up;
factors that were correlated with successful change were high religious motivation, the lesser extent to which one had been immersed in the homosexual lifestyle, felt change in homosexual orientation, and a higher level of mental health and emotional well-being;
· Factors not correlated with success included gender, homosexual vs. bisexual orientation, involvement in a change group, and involvement in reorientation therapy (this last factor was put forth cautiously for when long-term and brief therapy was distinguished, those in long-term therapy showed a 70% success rate, while those in brief therapy showed a success rate of just 44%).
http://www.christianmentalhealth.com/do ... change.htm
A source from a Christian site that is an Exodus International member ministry... why am I
NOT surprised. :roll: Furthermore, the site makes reference to The Journal of Psychology and Theology, a research base on psychological and
theological concepts. From where? Biola University, another religious institution. You have surprise marked all over this, Aineo.
All you have demonstrated is you don’t want to find accurate information. Tell me lemmein what were the sources of information for these comments:
I did a research paper on reparative therapy and the ex-gay movement. What I found was some very disturbing information.
Like your assertion that the ex-gay movement initiated reparative therapy, which is false?
Wrong. I never said the ex-gay movement initiated reparative therapy. I said they are responsible for the reparative therapy practices today.
The 'success' stories promoted by various ex-gay groups are always filled with people who have weird histories of alcoholism and sex addiction as seen in this article.
If that article is your only source of information then again all you have proven is that you could care less about truth and are seeking bigoted information from biased sources. Try this link for some stories that are not “weird histories of alcoholism and sex addiction”:
http://www.exodus-international.org/tes ... lity.shtml
"I saw my brother in a seemingly healthy gay relationship and thought, Maybe it can work after all. But then I watched the relationship deteriorate to a violent end, and I lost hope for a long-term gay relationship. From the age of 19 until I was 26, I had 300-400 sexual partners. Depression set in; I began to drink and use cocaine to deaden the loneliness. One night, in total despair, I decided to end my life. I took a large amount of painkillers and a fifth of vodka. I awoke the next day feeling like I had been run over by a truck. I was alive -- but still miserable."
"I craved attention and did all kinds of daring things, just to get people to notice me. I started taking drugs at 14, and became totally rebellious against authority--especially teachers and cops."
"My biggest problem was pornography. It started with "girlie" magazines, and soon degenerated into a steady diet of hard-core porno movies. The resulting conviction I felt ate at me like a cancer. But I couldn't quit. Porn gave me a high and I craved it every day, just like some people crave alcohol or drugs. I entered my 20's and sex became my whole lifestyle. I watched lewd movies whenever possible, and seduced as many women as I could. I'd act the perfect gentleman and get a woman to fall in love with me. As soon as she really cared, I'd dump her for the next one. I went through dozens of relationships that way."
"Then came the first day of school. Much to my horror, I was forced to wear a dress! I felt totally humiliated during recess when one of the boys pulled up my dress and then ran away as he shouted, "I just wanted to see if you had overalls on underneath." I began fantasizing about a machine that would change me instantly into a young man like the silent-movie star, Rudoph Valentino. I could dress in handsome clothing, be desired by women, and make lots of money to care for Mother and my family."
These are strange stories of alcoholism, sex addiction and even childhood transsexualism. These are hardly typical.
You keep appealing to the APA even after I furnished you proof that the board of trustees were influenced by gay activism and high ranking gay psychiatrists when they removed homosexuality from the DSM III as a pathological disorder. The fact is many mental health professionals with impeccable credentials disagree with the APA, and are conducting on-going studies. Have you checked out the Journal of Homosexuality, read “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth”, or any other source of information that contradicts a professional organization that allowed activists to dictate policy and mental health decisions? Many people have a psychiatric pathological foundation for their behavior and in spite of your denials this includes some homosexuals.
And how am I appealing to the APA? My only reference to the APA was the fact that homosexuality isn't a disorder and thus, shouldn't list homosexuality in its list of disorders.
So far your only source of information is the APA, personal experience, and Internet sites with an agenda to discredit what the ex-gay movement. Have you research genetics, personality, and the other factors that some experts in sexuality have stated influence sexual orientation?
Oh, Internet sites with an agenda like the
Psychology department of UC Davis?
Or like
The Journal of Sex Research article on Nicolosi's interesting practice on reparative therapy?
It's interesting how you will cite propaganda from ex-gay sites and accuse me of using biased sources with 'an agenda'.
You love your boyfriend, that is great but love is subjective and can change in a heartbeat. Why else to you think gay relationships are historically short-term?
Short-term? Really. Well, that's nice of you to produce evidence for your claim. After all, your evidence is just completely blew me away even after I recently met two gay couples this weekend, one who have been together for 13 years and another for 17 years. :roll:
And let me guess you will come back with societal pressure and homophobia, which is nothing more than finger pointing and looking for a scapegoat to explain that the vast majority of gay relationships are unstable. Unlike you my experience with thousands of gay men and lesbian women covers over 40 years and I know why gay relationships break up and societal prejudice and homophobia are not factors.
Uh... no. There are many long term gay relationships that I have encountered, which definitely challenges your assertion that somehow homosexual relationships are shorter than heterosexual ones especially since you completely presumed it without providing evidence as usual.
Do you know that there is a new movement in the gay community to help gay men related as human beings and not simply sex objects? I volunteer for the Western Colorado AIDS Project where I interact with gay men weekly and one of these men is in charge of such a group that is affiliated with other such groups statewide.
So I view my boyfriend as a sex object and not a human being? :roll: It keeps getting better, doesn't it Aineo?
Also your information concerning HIV/AIDS infection rates among MSM is totally false:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention July 1997
The AIDS rate for men who have sex with men (MSM) continues to rise, but more slowly than earlier in the epidemic. Due to behavior changes which began in the 1980s, there has been a slowing in the overall rate of new AIDS cases among MSM and declines in new HIV infections have occurred in many areas. Although the overall numbers of AIDS cases among MSM have leveled, cases have steadily risen in some populations of MSM. Racial/ ethnic minority MSM have had large increases in AIDS rates, whereas AIDS rates have decreased slightly for white MSM. AIDS rates also have continued to rise among MSM in small cities and rural areas.
http://www.thebody.com/cdc/msm.html
This report is dated 1997 and is outdated. The MSM infection rate is on the increase. Here are some other Internet sites that prove you wrong:
http://www.wwc.org/PDF/factsmsm.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/msm.pdf
More and more gay men are bare-backing. The effectiveness of HIV/AIDS medications have lulled the younger generation of gay men into a false sense of security. Also have you heard of “bug chasers”?
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... .0.12.1059
http://gaylife.about.com/cs/gay101/a/bugparties.htm
So? What are you trying to prove? It still doesn't change the fact that it is unsafe practices that is inherently dangerous, not gay sex. I am not responsible for guys who bareback despite the warnings of barebacking strangers with potential HIV infection.
Are those in the gay community any more evil than heterosexuals? No, people are people and to stereotype the gay community as evil perverts is just as false as your depiction of the ex-gay movement. As I posted above I know thousands of gay men and lesbian women and many of them are wonderful people with talents and abilities that enrich our society and to characterize all ex-gays the way you do is nothing more than hateful bigotry that is just a phobic as homophobia.
Perhaps I was a little hasty in characterizing all ex-gays. However, I must admit there is very little evidence for me to believe otherwise. While common sense tells me there are always exceptions, my research have provided me with a feeling that those are only the exceptions and that the majority of ex-gays are deceived in their 'transformation'. Ex-gay groups are notorious for labeling bisexuals as homosexuals and then claim success when their bisexual subjects and surpressed their homosexual desires.
As I mentioned earlier I am an AIDS patient. I have cognitive problems associated with the virus and my medications and I occassionally have problems throwing in extra words in my posts that I do not always catch when proof reading.
Sorry to hear that.
As to where I get the idea that heterosexuality is man's true identity you seem to forget this is a fundamentalist Christian message board and I am using terminology used by gay youth who have emailed me.
And I am challenging that assumption since it's not based on anything than the Bible. If you're going to tell me that your assumption of a heterosexist viewpoint is based solely on the Bible, then that's fine. Just don't pretend that there is actual outside evidence to support that claim when you haven't provided any.