Christian/Muslim ThreadsBefore Jesus(pbuh), Monotheism or trinityIn my opinion, it would be useful to look at these verses from the OT and decide for yourself, are the Jews right for refuting them as Messianic or not? (btw, most Jews believe these verses are Messianic. They just don’t think they pertain to Jesus because they don’t believe He is the Messiah). You, as a believer of Isa, al Masih, however; and all the prophets beforehand, should look at the revelations to those prophets (the Torah and the Injil) to see what they have to say about this Messiah. Then look if these prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus. You’ll find that they are, and that some even give a glimpse of His divinity, and give a hint, even in the Old Testament, of the concept of the Trinity. Yes, Abraham, Noah, and Moses did not necessarily know about the Trinity, but that does not mean it isn’t valid. In fact, if the mere fact that the previous prophets before Jesus may have not known the concept invalidates belief in the Trinity, then I could also say of Islam that it is false because no previous prophets before Muhammad claimed to be Muslim and believed in a god named Allah. Yet, you will not allow me to do that, since a Muslim will contend that Islam is the final and more complete and more perfect revelation of God. I want to suggest to you that the coming of Jesus fully and more perfectly revealed the concept of God because He is God Himself, with all His glory and perfect attributes, coming to show us of Himself (Hebrews 1:1-3; Colossians 1:9; John 1:18). Before He came, we could not fully see who God is, because we are imperfect, fallible creatures. The previous prophets had no real understanding of the Trinity, but God, in His sovereignty and wisdom, was concerned most with letting them know that He is the only God, not on whether or not they could explain God. He asks the same of us today. We can never presume to explain God. He expects us to KNOW him, so that we may know the way to life (and in His mercy, He makes himself a KNOWABLE GOD) but not to UNDERSTAND Him because we never can. The previous prophets did not have a full grasp on the concept of how exactly God is one, but what they did know were the promises of God to save them through the Messiah. Their hope rested in He who was to come and this was embodied in the rituals that they had and the scriptures that they wrote; from the sacrificial system which pointed to the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,” to the prophecies given of the coming King, who will reign forever, and yet will first be a suffering servant (Isaiah 53). Some of these prophecies even give a glimpse to the special characteristic of this Divine, Promised One (i.e. Isaiah 9:6,7; Daniel 7:13; Psalms 2:1-12). These prophets were not given a full grasp of the Messiah, but God gave them enough to hope on. It was beyond their imagination that when God said He would save His people, He meant that He, Himself, would. What an amazing concept! Yet they knew that however God was going to do it, it would be the absolute best way, since God is sovereign. Jesus, Himself, said to His disciples in Matthew 13:17 - for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it Yet though they couldn’t fully understand, their hope firmly rested on the promises of God. I would like also to note that the prophets didn’t question God when they were given Messianic prophecies, which seemed to undermine the authority of God, because His power belongs to the Messiah, as well. They accepted it, without question: For example, when told that the ruler to come from Bethlehem would go forth “from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2) the prophets didn’t say, “But that can’t be, since God is the only one that has existed and will exist eternally, and if this Messiah also exists eternally, then that means He also is God, and therefore God is no longer one! This is absolutely blasphemous and goes against the very oneness of God!” When shown in a vision that "one like the Son of Man” would come and have a kingdom and dominion that is everlasting" and "will never be destroyed" and that "all peoples, nations, and men of every language worshipped him” (Daniel 7:13), the prophet did not say, “Far be it from you God! You are the only one to be worshipped, and if another has the right to be worshipped, then wouldn’t that make you two Gods, instead of one?” The prophets said no such thing and accepted the revelations given to them. They knew that since God had said throughout history that He is ONE, then the existence of a Messiah (who in HUMAN THINKING would make God two or more since He has the rights and prerogatives of God) does not at all undermine God’s oneness. To have God manifest both in Yahweh and in the Messiah does not make God any less one. So though they may not have fully grasped the idea of the Trinity, the prophets trusted fully in God and did not attempt to explain the apparent discrepancies in His words. They sought only to know God and love him, not to explain Him. I try never to use analogies when explaining the Trinity. Why? Because describing an infinite, unexplainable, unfathomable God with finite substances and concepts would grossly under represent who God is. This is why people like you will misunderstand the concept of the Trinity. How do we explain the Trinity then? We can’t. My words would be insufficient. God must be allowed to speak for Himself. So what does God say? Well, in Deuteronomy, it says that, "Hear O Israel, the Lord, our God, the Lord is one.” God says then that He is the ONLY God and none should be worshipped but Him. So God is ONE. “Well and good,” you say, “end of discussion.” Not exactly. Yes, God is one, but is His nature as being one, the same as what we humans think of when we think of the number one? Well, we have to ask Him, since He says that "my thoughts are not your thoughts. Neither are my ways your ways” (Isaiah 55:8,9). [/b]We would expect then that since His ways and thoughts are higher than ours, "as high as the heavens are far the earth” (this means INFINITELY HIGHER) that his oneness will most probably not be what we first think of when we think of oneness. That’s why we must allow God to reveal to us His nature of being one, because my logic could never hold it. And you know what? He does reveal Himself in His word in a way beyond just thinking of oneness in terms of the mathematical number one. I would suggest that you stop looking for analogies, because they will naturally, be insufficient to explain an infinite God. Just read His word. He does reveal Himself in it. This is exactly why the Son came in the likeness of men. He became mortal for you and me, that He might take on the penalty of sin for all of us, which is death (this is real death by the way; as in completely dead, as you ask later in your question). Yes, God cannot die because He is immortal, and with that, all Christians will agree with you. However, it would be perfectly logical, and in His sovereignty and power, to come as a human being, so that He might die for us. The Son CHOSE to take on mortality, so that He may pay our price. Thank God, then, that his oneness is not like what we want to attribute to Him. He is the only God, but He is also Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus, the Son could come in a mortal body without undermining the power of God. As a human being, he prayed to the Father, just like we, as human beings, must do. As a human being, he became hungry and tired. As a human being, he died on the cross the death that we ought to die. This, however, was all done by choice. That is why He is 100% God and 100% man, at the same time. No other human being had that choice of being born human. You and I were born human because someone else willed it for us; we literally had no choice in the matter. Not so with Jesus. He chose to come and save you and me. By right, He is divine, and He exerted this right by forgiving sins (Matthew 9:-6; which only God can do), claiming glory with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5; only God had glory since the foundation of the world), claiming to exist before Abraham (John 8:58; notice in this instance that He didn’t say, “Before Abraham was, I was!” for this would have denoted that there is a time where He does not exist. Instead he said, "Before Abraham was, I AM!” This denotes everlasting existence. Only God is not confined by the past and the future, but ALWAYS IS!). There were many other attributes that belong only to God, which Jesus put on His own person that denote His Divinity. So by right, He was and is God. But by choice, he was human. Again, I want to stress that He did that for you and me. If we could only see the depth of His love!
To be one, for an infinite, unfathomable God may not be as simple as 1 + 1 + 1. Our finite minds look at that number one and think, wait a minute, 1 + 1 + 1 does not equal 1, and so we commit that fallacy in thinking of God IN TERMS OF OUR OWN LOGIC. Here is an example of a time when oneness in the Bible is not explained by mathematics, and therefore we might think it is illogical. Genesis 2:24 – Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become ONE flesh. God said that, however, and so it cannot be illogical. It may appear illogical, but in His eyes it is perfectly logical. I want to suggest to you that God is beyond our logic. YES, He is logical, but he is so infinitely more logical than us, that His logic is ILLOGICAL FOR US. Is that really so hard to believe? And you know what? I have no problem with it because if I thought as God does, then He ceases to be God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 and 25 says, For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God…because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. To say that the things of God has to fit in our human logic is absolutely ridiculous. Many things of God appear illogical. Is the resurrection of the dead (which both Muslims and Christians believe is promised for the righteous) logical? Is the love of God for imperfect, undeserving humans logical? The Bible teaches that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” and that we love Him because He first loved us. The love of God is so illogical in human terms because in our humanity, we cannot grasp unconditional love. We love only those who love us back. We love only those who are good to us. But God’s love is not like that. That is why I am so glad that God’s logic is not my logic. This is exactly why the concept of God must be revealed by God Himself, and not by any rhetoric or explanation of man. When Peter affirmed that Jesus was "the Christ, the Son of the living God," Jesus says to him, "Blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:13-17). I pray that you let God reveal to you who He is. Read. Study. We can never begin to understand God, but He invites us to get to know Him. And as we get to know Him, we find that the Trinity does not undermine God’s oneness or take away His glory at all, but it is actually a perfect revelation of who He is and of His matchless love for you and me. God Bless. |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame