Ah it seems H2O is still around let's see what great pearls of regurgitated material you have for us today:
Aburaees wrote:When I was a Muslim I had learnt that Bukhari had collected 300,000 Hadiths and chose only 6,000 of them to be classified as Sahih.
When you were a Muslim does not mean you were a practicing muslim, or was educated properly about Islam. There are plenty of Muslims born into Muslim families [not to mention reverts] and are ignorant of their own faith whom merely just claim to be muslim per culture and tradition but dont practice their religion as a muslim is suppose to do. However we will answer most of your comments you made above in one nutshell seeing that you were supposedly a former muslim seem to have a lack of research on the topic.
When you were a christian/jew/hadith rejecter does not mean you were a practicing christian/jew/hadith rejecter, or was educated properly about christianity/judaism/hadith rejecting, christianity is not about rules and repetition, christianity is spiritual something islam cannot comprehend if you believe using odd pieces of toilet tissue and bowing down to a rock idol with a statue of al-uzza still embedded within it in the east will guarantee you entrance into a legalised brothel in the sky may the Lord bring you to reality that pimping is not to be associated with the God of heaven. There are plenty of christians/jews/hadith rejecters born into christian/jew/hadith rejecter families [
not to mention reverts] and are ignorant of their christianity/judiasm/hadith rejecting whom merely just claim to be christians/jews/hadith rejecters per culture and tradition but dont practice their religion as a christian/jew/hadith rejecter is suppose to do. However we will answer most of your comments you made above in one nutshell seeing that you were supposedly a former christian/jew seem to have a lack of research on the topic.
Bukhari's collection that he chose to be "Sahih" was based on Isnad ie the transmission realiabilty of a hadith which was solely based on "hear say". You should have learnt this if you had read his biography and his own words about his collection. He never claimed his work was infallible, but made it clear it was his opinion of the authenticity of "Isnad" and that his work is subject to error.
But your work is not subject to error because...?
After Bukhari collected what he, in his best human effort with the sources that was available to him at that time, never tested his collection of Isnad with the Quran when a hadeeth it self deemed that anything written other than Quran must be confirmed with the Quran.
How many times have we shown you hadith material that does not contradict the koran which you in turn reject for the sake of your conscience that islam is truth you cannot deny.
Bukhari's student known as Muslim in his collection called "Sahih Muslim" didnt accept some of his teacher's Isnad collection whom also re-evaluated his work and came out with about 4,000 fewer than the 6,000 his teacher approved of. Thus his student rejected about 2,000 hadeeths of Bukhari, in which the collection "Sahih Muslim" is also a secondary authoritive source in Islam to some and to others a third in which the Quran is the primary source above all of them.
Yes somehow Muslim was in error what he really should have done was reject them all, your bone of contention with all these embarasing hadiths and the end game is to reject them entirely; see no hadiths no rape of safiyah no rape of captive women no embarassing chronicle of stealing Zaynab from Zaid, or admitting your prophet was a practicing pagan, no controversy that Aisha had an affair and the people that accused her got several lashes and this is the basis for the punishment of flogging for adultery, no admission that this incident is why Aisha and Ali never got along and lead to the deaths of 30000 of the muslim ummah as Ali and Aisha went to war soon after your alledge prophet's death but then that would leave you with 114 utterances with no context, is this what you want? leaving a plethora of madzhabs to pick and choose what verse they want to believe in they are already doing so as we speak.
Imam Nawawi in his book called "RiyaadhiyyusSalaheen" whom re-evaluated all the claimed "SAHIH" hadeeths by both Bukhari and Muslim, were authenticated by Quran approving of only a fewer, about 700 years ago, to that which was originally selected by the first collectors.
All this talk about hadeeth this and that you all abviously have no clue of what is what. I would like one of you to get and read for your self Imam Nawawi's collection that has been authenticated by Quran which are also self authentication by validating reports, and apply your criticism that you have so wantonly been doing, or misleadingly done.
Sorry bud it's not for us to judge what your imams and mullahs have to say hundreds of years after the events, we can only judge a religion by it's scripture again you are trying to justify your stance of dismissing hadiths (with a red herring that they contradict the koran even when it is obvious they don't contradict the koran only your conscience)
Aburaees wrote:As for the prayers, I'm only aware of THREE times of the day mentioned in the Qur'an, the very reason why Shi'ites combine Zuhr/Asr and Maghrib/Isha.
Kai wrote:Could you please expound a bit further on this; to my knowledge three prayers are mentioned in the Koran (do correct me if I am wrong).
The other two are mentioned in the Hadith's
Let me quote my self.
H2O wrote: The five obligatory prayers are mentioned in the Quran not by name but their performances at the five parts of the day
Here are verses from the Quran:
If they are not mentioned by name how do you know they are referring to the five obligatory prayers?
[11] And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: for those things that are good remove those that are evil: be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) [AYA translation]
I think we both know what you are about to do here, making a statement when you are not qualified to say so:
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. 11:114 Khalifa
contact prayers at both ends of the day and during the night equals 3
Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful. Pickthall
Two ends of the day and in some watches of the night still equals 3
And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful. Shakir
Two parts of the day and the first hours of the night still equates to 3
[11]and stand for the Salah at the points of the day (?) and the approaches of the night..... [Our translation]
See how you have conveniently removed the dual adjective to give it the impression of a whole lot more than three? Very good you mention "our translation" it is of no use to any one of us you have no qualifications in arabic or islam to make your translation incumbent on anybody this is a fallacy statement just your view in a glass house.
The ends of the day are points of the day which are morning and evening when day begins and closes. Thus is refering to the Morning prayer called Fajr or the prayer that is done at the brake of dawn, and Maghrib or the prayer that is done after dusk before night fall. Two prayers are mentioned here and more.
Sorry 3 prayers are mentioned and no more.
[17] Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline (?) till the darkness of the night, and the morning (Fajr) prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony. [AYA translation]
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed. 17:78 Khalifa
contact prayer and the recitation of the quran at dawn 1 prayer and 1 recitation.
Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed. Pickthall 17:78
One worship at the going down of the sun and one recital of the quran at dawn, 1 worship and 1 recitation.
Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed. shakir 17:78
Prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation. Context seems to indicate this is an all night prayer right the way till dawn.
At the Sun's decline is the afternoon prayer when the Sun starts to decline from its zenith. This prayer is called "Zhuhr". Also the Fajr prayer is mention by name here in the Arabic.
I dont see 5 prayers anywhere but in the pursuit of objectivity lets see what the tafsirs says about the context from your eminent imams and mullahs:
Tafsir on sura 11:114:
(And perform the Salah, at the two ends of the day) "This is referring to the morning prayer (Subh) and the evening prayer (Maghrib).'' The same was said by Al-Hasan and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam. In one narration reported by Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and others, Al-Hasan said, "It means the morning prayer (Subh) and the late afternoon prayer (`Asr).'' Mujahid said, "It is the morning prayer at the beginning of the day and the noon prayer (Zuhr) and late afternoon prayer (`Asr) at the end of the day.'' This was also said by Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi and Ad-Dahhak in one narration from him.
(and in some hours of the night.) Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Al-Hasan and others said, "This means the night prayer (`Isha').'' Ibn Al-Mubarak reported from Mubarak bin Fadalah that Al-Hasan said,
(and in some hours of the night.) "This means the evening (Maghrib) and late night (`Isha') prayers. The Messenger of Allah said,
(They are the approach of the night: Maghrib and `Isha'.) The same was said by Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak (that this means the Maghrib and `Isha' prayers). It should be noted that this verse was revealed before the five daily prayers were made obligatory during the night of Isra' (the Prophet's night journey to Jerusalem). At that time there were only two obligatory prayers: a prayer before sunrise and a prayer before sunset. During the late night another prayer (Tahajjud) was also made obligatory upon the Prophet and his nation. Later, this obligation was abrogated for his nation and remained obligatory upon him . Finally, this obligation was abrogated for the Prophet as well, according to one opinion. Allah knows best.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=11&tid=24374
Looks like the tafsir of said verse according to your respected imams and mullahs (which you are not a member of H2O) agree that the koran does not speak of 5 prayers.
[20] Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun (Fajr), and before its setting (Asr); yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night (Ishaa), and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy [AYA translation]
The night prayer is mentioned which is called "Ishaa"
If you are going to associate celeberate the praises of thy lord as prayers, before the rising of the sun (prayer 1) and before it's setting; (prayer 2), yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, (prayer 3), and at the sides of the day (
prayer 4 why did you miss this one out?)
What again does the tafsir on sura 20:130 say?
Allah comforts His Prophet by saying to him,
(So bear patiently what they say,) This means, "Be patient concerning their rejection of you.''
(And glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun,) This is speaking of the Morning (Fajr) prayer.
(and before its setting,) This is speaking of the Mid-afternoon (`Asr) prayer. This has been mentioned in the Two Sahihs on the authority of Jarir bin `Abdullah Al-Bajali, who said, "Once we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah when he looked up at the moon on a night when it was full. He said,
(Verily, you all will see your Lord (in the Hereafter) just as you see this moon and you will not have to crowd together to see Him. Therefore, if you are able to not miss a prayer before sunrise (Fajr) and before sunset (`Asr), then you should do so.) Then he recited this Ayah.'' Imam Ahmad recorded that `Umarah bin Ru'aybah that he heard the Messenger of Allah saying,
(Anyone who prays before sunrise and before sunset will never enter the Hellfire.) This was also recorded by Muslim. Concerning Allah's statement,
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=20&tid=32635
Again your eminent imams and mullahs cannot find it in the koran for 5 daily prayers only in ahadith which you chose to reject when it contradicts the koran I hope you realise H2O you should only be praying 3 times a day as the hadiths contradict the koran in this area do they not?
[30] Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon (Asr) and when the day begins to decline (Zhur).[AYA translation]
Both Asr and Zhuhr prayers are mentioned here as Asr is the late afternoon prayer and Zhuhr is the early afternoon prayer. And finally again
:
[2]Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer (Asr); and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).[AYA translation]
The middle prayer is Asr which is the third prayer out of the cycle of the entire 24 hour day.
Interesting what the tafsir on sura 2:238 says:
(And when you are in safety, then remember Allah (pray)) meaning, `Perform the prayer as I have commanded you by completing its bowing, prostration, standing, sitting, and with the required attention (in the heart) and supplication.'...
Is this mentioned in the koran?
All of our prayers Fajr, Zhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, and Ishaa are all mention in the Quran in which we needed no Hadeeth to confirm. It is the Quran that confirms that autheniticity of the hadeeth on the observance of the prayers.
Ad hominems
denial of the antecedents
Negative premises
Improper disjunctive syllogism
argument from ambiguity
Argument from misleading authority <---- you
Argument from desperation
Lies
The growth of Islam as a religion of established rituals and practices did
not stop at the death of Muhammad. On the contrary much development was
still required before the rough edges could be smoothed out into the fixed,
carefully defined system that we find today. Nowhere is this process more
obvious than in the defining of the forms of prayer and their times of
observance.
The five-times-a-day Salaah is perhaps the fulcrum around which all else
rotates in ritualistic Islam. The times are fajr, the morning prayer just
before dawn; zuhr, the prayer just after midday; 'asr, the afternoon prayer;
maghrib, the prayer just after sunset; and 'isha, the evening prayer. All
Muslim jurists hold that the observance of these prayers is fardh, that is,
compulsory. Nevertheless, while the forms of ablution are defined in the
Qur'an, neither the five times of prayer nor the procedure of each rak'ah is
prescribed in the book. The Qur'an does mention both the salaatal-fajr and
salaatal-ishaa in Surah 24.58 by name but in this case it is improbable that
these were actual titles of prescribed prayer - times. It is far more likely
that the expressions simply mean the "morning prayer" and the "evening
prayer" respectively. This interpretation is supported by the form of the
only other prayer mentioned as such in the Qur'an, namely salaatal-wusta in
Surah 2.238, which means simply the "middle prayer". Even though the Qur'an
only mentions three times of prayer, Muslim writers endeavour to make the
Qur'an prescribe the five fixed periods of prayer and resort to ingenious
and none-too-successful methods to achieve their objective. The Qur'an does
indeed urge believers to set up regular prayers at stated times (Surah
4.103), but it is quite loose in its treatment of the daily prayers. Apart
from the three times it actually specifies it has a variety of exhortations
regarding prayers, for example:
Celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the
sun, and before its setting; Yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of
the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual)
joy. Surah 20.130
And establish regular prayer at the two ends of the day and at the
approaches of the night. Surah 11.114
It is hard to define the exhortations in these two passages, let alone make
them fit the five-times-a-day ritual outlined above. Muslim commentators who
seek to realise this end come up with a variety of interpretations. It is
agreed that "before the rising of the sun" in Surah 20.130 refers to the
morning prayer, but the exhortation to pray "before its setting" is
interpreted by Yusuf Ali and Muhammad Ali as the asr prayer, to which
Daryabadi adds the zuhr prayer. "Part of the hours of the night" is extended
by these commentators to specifically mean the maghrib and isha prayers,
though Muhammad Ali adds the late-night tahajjud prayer as well. "At the
sides of the day", a vague expression, is nevertheless specifically taken to
mean the fajr and isha prayers by Daryabadi, zuhr by Yusuf Ali, while
Muhammad Ali adds a voluntary dua to the zuhr prayer. These inconsistencies
show how hard it is to read the five daily prayers into the somewhat loose
Qur'anic terms found in these verses. Surah 11.114 is also interpreted in
various ways by Muslim commentators. In his major work on Islam, however,
Muhammad Ali openly states:
The Qur'an does not explicitly state that prayer should be said at such and
such times, but it does give indications of the times of prayer. (Ali, The
Religion of Islam, p.334).
Another writer is even more to the point and seems to have a far more
balanced and objective approach to the Qur'an than those who would make it
yield later developments:
The fact, however, that the prayers were fundamentally three is evidenced by
the fact that the Prophet is reported to have combined these four prayers
into two, even without there being any reason. It was in the post Prophetic
period that the number of prayers was inexorably fixed without any
alternative at five, and the fact of the fundamental three prayers was
submerged under the rising tide of the Hadith which was put into circulation
to support the idea that prayers were five. (Rahman, Islam, p. 36).
It is indeed only in the Hadith that we find the five times specifically
fixed. It is said that when Muhammad came into the presence of Allah during
the Mi'raj, he was commanded to pray fifty times a day. On relating this to
Moses, the latter urged him to get it reduced by ten, which Allah duly
allowed. The narrative continues (Muhammad speaking):
Again I passed by Moses and he said the same again; and so it went on until
only five prayers for the whole day and night were left. Moses again gave me
the same advice. I replied that I had been back to my Lord and asked him to
reduce the number until I was ashamed, and would not do it again. (Ibn
Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah, p. 186).
God is then said to have stated that those who observed the five prayers
would have the value of fifty counted to them. In another work of Hadith it
is said that Gabriel specifically came to Muhammad one day and performed the
fajr, zuhr, asr, maghrib and isha prayers with Muhammad and told him he was
ordered to demonstrate them to him so that he would know when and how to
perform the prescribed prayers (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, p.297).
We have already seen, however, that the whole story of the Mi'raj is a myth
founded primarily on Zoroastrian sources and the possible genuineness of the
five fixed times of prayer is hardly enhanced by the claim in the Hadith
that their authority derives from this speculative tale. More than one
author has suggested that the five periods themselves are of Zoroastrian
origin:
In the Koran itself only three daily prayers are known, and it is no doubt
due to influence from the Persian side that their number in the oldest Islam
is increased to five. (Buhl, "The Character of Mohammed as a Prophet", The
Muslim World, Vol. 1, p.356).
A reference to the Avesta will show that the Zoroastrians are instructed to
observe prayer five times a day . . . . the day is divided into five
periods, during which the gains, or prayers, which belong to each period
should be recited. (Blair, The Sources of Islam, p. 127).
We may conclude that the definition of five daily prayers in Islam is a
typical example of the way in which the religion of Muhammad, still growing
towards maturity at the time of his death, was rounded off in later years.