HERE ARE SOME REPLIES TO ABDURRAHMANS ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THE APOSTLE PAUL
abdurrahman wrote:
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful
Interesting Article about Paul and church I give some sections .
The Apostle Paul Founder of Christianity
Jesus was not the founder of Christianity as we know it today.
Kai responds:
What are the first books in the New Testament called? The Gospels, right! Who is teaching, healing, atoning and calling his followers to spread the message? Who tells them about the Holy Spirit who will remind them of everything the has taught them, and who in a similar way will reveal the more (John 14-16).
Abdurrahman wrote:
Most of the New Testament doesn't even concern the historical Jesus while the main influence is the Apostle Paul and a Greek convert named John.
The Gospels occupy almost half of the entire New Testament, the Acts present the early preaching of Jesus both his historical and exalted state.
Kai responds:
And then again, I ask: so what?
At the present we are much more interested in what Jesus is now and is doing now, than what he once did.
The very fact that he is alive and ruling in his is exalted state is the very reason why Christianity is victorius.
The very reason why nobody has yet been able to destroy it by force or intellectually, the very reason why people are converting and having their lives transformed. So you are right we are very much concerned about what Christ is right now.
Let me correct your next phrase too, no, the main influence is not Paul, it is Paul’s and the emphasis of other apostles of Jesus Christ.
And who is the Greek convert called John?
Could you please post the passages about this supposed Greek convert?
Abdurrahman claims:
Paul never met Jesus in the flesh,
Kai responds:
I know Paul never met Jesus in flesh, and so what? If that is the criteria, may I then ask if Muhammad ever meet Allah in flesh? No, exactly!
Why do you then believe in any of Muhammad’s proclamations. Exactly could you please explain where and what the problem is?
Abdurrahman wrote:
he only claimed some strange vision
Kai responds:
You know Muhammad claimed to have strange visions too; something like the sun and the moon orbiting around the earth.
Abdurrahman wrote:
and proceeded to paganize the teachings of Jesus
Kai responds:
Maybe it was Muhammad who paganised the previous religions, by bringing the Kabah and a range of pre-Islamic rituals and ideas in to the monotheistic category.
Abdurrahman wrote:
(who preached an enlightened form of Judaism),.
Kai responds:
In that case Jesus preached an enlightened form of Judaism
Abdurrahman wrote:
until he created Pauline Christianity
Kai responds:
I dealth with this in my first reply, Paul’s Gospel is the same as the Gospel or the Gospel of God (1 Thessalonians 1-2).
Also you have not yet succeeded to separate the teachings of Jesus and Paul, have you noticed that?
Abdurrahman writes:
Because there are no known writings from Jesus,
kai replies:
You are right, Jesus never wrote a book, the Koran is utterly wrong here! The Gospels clearly reveal that this task was handed over to the apostles (Matthew 28:20) (John 14-16).
If I am wrong, then prove me historically wrong.
Abdurrahman wrote:
the actual Apostles, or anyone that actually knew Him in the flesh (other then perhaps James), most of what He taught is lost forever.
Kai responds:
Utter rubbish! Could you please present evidences to your claim.
All the sources of the four Gospels where written or spoken by the apostles or individuals who met Jesus.
Matthew and John met Jesus, Mark met Jesus, however, Marks Gospel is according to the early churchfathers who met the apostles, the Gospel of Peter, Mark merely dictated. Again you may consider Luke, however, Luke again drew from the sources of those who knew Jesus.
And then again, did Muhammad every met Allah in flesh?
If he only met him through angelic mediators or in revelation, then according to your own criteria, the Koran can actually not be trusted; well you said it not me.
AND THEN AGAIN HOW TRUSTWORTHY ARE THE PASSAGES OF THE KORAN?
THE HADITH’S CLEARLY REVEAL THAT THE KORAN WAS NEVER COLLECTED IN MUHAMMAD’S LIFE TIME AND SUCH A TASK WOULD VIRTUALLY BE IMPOSSIBLE, WHY?
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said (to me): "You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle (saw). So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it (in one book)". By Allah! If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle (saw) did not do?" Abu Bakr replied "By Allah, it is a good project". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477)
WELL ONE REASON IS THAT LOTS OF THE PASSAGES WERE LOST FOREVER AND FORGOTTEN, BEFORE THE COLLECTION EVER TOOK PLACE:
Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.23).
ANY SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS ATTEMPTED AND THEY ENDED UP WITH A MULTIPLE NUMBER OF DIFFERENT KORANS. THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID THE PROBLEM IS WAS TO PICK OUT ONE, CORRECT IT, AND BURN THE REST
Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sha'm and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to Uthman, 'O Chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent It to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa'id bin al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.479).
HOWEVER THE WHOLE INCIDENT IS DUBIUS AND THE WHOLE MOTIVE WAS POLITICAL RATHER THAN RELIGIOUS; THUS THE KORAN WE POSSESS TO DAY IS ONLY A POLITICAL MASTERPIECE
By Allah, he did not act or do anything in respect of the manuscripts (masahif) except in full consultation with us, for he said, 'What is your opinion in this matter of qira'at (reading)? It has been reported to me that some are saying 'My reading is superior to your reading'. That is a perversion of the truth. We asked him, 'What is your view (on this)?' He answered, 'My view is that we should unite the people on a single text (mushaf waahid), then there will be no further division or disagreement'. We replied, 'What a wonderful idea!' Someone from the gathering there asked, 'Whose is the purest (Arabic) among the people and whose reading (is the best)?' They said the purest (Arabic) among the people was that of Sa'id ibn al-'As and the (best) reader among them was Zaid ibn Thabit. He (Uthman) said, 'Let the one write and the other dictate'. Thereafter they performed their task and he united the people on a (single) text. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.22).
THE BIGGER PROBLEM LAYS IN THE FACT THAT KORANIC RECITERS WERE AWARE OF THE CORRUPTION, JUST CONSIDER ABDULLAH BIN MAS’UD:
Narrated Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) (ra): By Allah other than Whom none has the right to be worshipped! There is no Sura revealed in Allah's Book but I know at what place it was revealed; and there is no verse revealed in Allah's Book but I know about whom it was revealed. And if I know that there is somebody who knows Allah's Book better than I, and he is at a place that camels can reach, I would go to him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.488).
NOW IF THE KORAN TO DAY IS WITHOUT CORRUPTION AND RELIABLE AND PRESENTS THE SAME AS THE KORAN AS THE ONE MUHAMMAD REVEALED, WHY DID ABDULLAH STATE THAT HE HAD TO FORSAKE WHAT ALLAH’S MESSENGER HAD SPOKEN?:
"I acquired directly from the messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the messenger of Allah?" (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.15).
MAKE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT