Revelation and Prophecy :: EschatologyThe 7 Hills of Rome :: Re: the beast that was and is notRe: the beast that was and is not
Mudturkle wrote:It is time for everyone to give up on the bad guess which was made a long time ago about Rome being Babylon the Great or the beast of Rev.
It is neither. And there will be no "revised (or revived) Roman empire".
If anyone wants to knock the RCC for their beliefs; fine. I will join in. But don't try to stick the label of Babylon the Great or the beast of Rev on the RCC. It don't fit, it's not Scriptural, and it doesn't even make sense.
See my post under "Who is the Babylon mentioned in Rev" which shows that Jerusalem is that great city.
Sure everyone knows that Rome sits on 7 hills. But did you know that Jerusalem sits on 7 *mountains*?
If the RCC is Babylon the Great, then who is the beast? (and vice-versa)
If you say that the RCC is Babylon the Great and that the EU or NATO or some other so-called "revised Roman empire" is the beast, then you are saying that the EU or NATO will hate the RCC and attack her. And you are saying that the EU or NATO will make war with the Christians. Obviously the statement about the EU or NATO attacking the RCC doesn't make sense. What requires more sense is to realize that we should not believe that "one day" the EU/NATO or the RCC will make war with the saints and ignore the fact that the true beast of Rev is *already* at war with Christians!
Thousands were killed in NYC on 9-11. Christian soldiers are being killed almost daily in Iraq. People are being killed all over the world simply because they are Christian.
Rome is not the mother of harlots. Jerusalem is. Rome is very likely a "daughter" harlot. But Jerusalem was a harlot long before Rome was. Isaiah 1:21 (KJV) and others.
Rev 17:10-18 itself rules out Rome being the beast. Everyone knows that Rome was in power when John recorded the book of Revelation.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
If Rome was the king which fits "and one is" of v 10, then Rome does not fit v 11 which says that the beast "that was, and is not". That is simple logic, folks.
And if you think that Rome is the king "that was, and is not" in spite of the above to the contrary; then explain v 18 which says that the woman "is that great city". According to v 16 that would have the beast (Rome?) hate the whore (Rome?) and attack her. Does that make any sense to anyone?
On the other hand, if Jerusalem is that great city which rules over the kings of the earth (Jerusalem represents a world wide religion just as Rome does) and if the beast is a group of nations (Muslims) on which the harlot sits (is situated on) which hate her and will attack her; then it makes perfect sense.
Plus there are many other reasons why this is true which I won't go into in this post because it would get too long.
The problem is that people will make a guess on one particular piece of the puzzle and then not check to see if it "fits" (is not contradicted by other Scripture) and not stop to think about whether it makes any sense.
Also, when we have one piece of the puzzle identified positively, then we should be able to use that piece to figure out the piece next to it.
Of course the problem with that is that that method will cause us to discard old erroneous guesses which many people are reluctant to do. Many people *like* to think that the RCC is mystery Babylon the Great and don't want to give it up.
Some TV preachers and authors have taken a wrong turn and don't want to admit that they were wrong. But we can't be that way and learn the truth. When we are shown the truth we must give up that which has been shown not to be true, otherwise we will never know the truth.
I always *assumed* that Rome was mystery Babylon the great based on "seven hills", and "arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:". That is, until it was shown to me that Jerusalem sits on 7 mountains, and that she also was clothed in scarlet with ornaments of gold (2 Sam 1:24).
Yours in Christ,
"Mudturkle"
I agree with this view of Mystery Babylon. It's uncanny that I recently posted about this topic in the thread, "Babylon of Revelation" that agrees with your view. Like you, I too accepted the traditional view of end time events. The precept that got me to re-think prophecy is the realization that God divorced Israel (Jer 3:8) on the grounds of fornication (Matt 19:9) thus the Old Covenant is abolished. Most Christians see no wrong in Israel reverting back to animal sacrifices in a rebuilt Temple. But God has His own opinion, "Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear..." (Is 1:13-15).
God provided His own Lamb for the salvation of mankind. There is no salvation in the blood of animals and/or Law-keeping. There is salvation in no other name but the name of Jesus Christ. No O.T. names or titles can be substituted for the name of Jesus. Therefore, any revival of the Old Covenant as a valid way to salvation is a direct challenge to the integrity of the New Covenant and an abomination to God. The O.T. precepts and God's Spiritual Laws are what are extended and magnified in the New Covenant and not the rituals which were types and shadows fulfilled in the New Covenant.
It is interesting you identify the muslims as the "beast". I still believe the anti-christ will be a European. I believe the false prophet will be the High Priest of the revived temple cult of the time of Jesus. I believe this High Priest may call fire down from heaven on an alter of animal sacrifice like Elijah did (1 Kings 18:38) and the world will accept this lying sign and wonder as validation that God's Presence has returned to His Temple. I believe the Noahide Laws of the Kabbalah will be become the foundation for global government. And it is interesting to note that both according to the Noahide Laws and Islam it is a death penalty offense to worship Jesus. I believe the Muslims will sign a peace treaty with the same intentions Hitler had when He signed a treaty with Stalin. I believe the event that triggers war is when the anti-christ declares himself to be God in the rebuilt temple. I can't a see a Muslim doing this. The very idea of a man declaring himself to be God is unacceptable in Islam even to the most moderate. I believe the scenario will be like when Israel revolted against the Romans that led to destruction in 70AD. I believe the E.U. and the West will be dragged into a war with Russia and Islam and then China. I believe many Jews will turn to Jesus Christ and become the martyrs of Rev 20:4. Perhaps the reason anti-christ turns against Israel is because of an uprising of Christianized Jews? This too would enrage the Muslims. It is possible there could be an assassination of the anti-christ in Jerusalem by revolting Jews and then the anti-christ imitates the death, buriel and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is also possible a Muslim may be the assassin. In any case, it appears unlikely the Muslims are the beast.
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