Sorry for my late reply, I am also extremely busy these days
Lame Way Wrote:
I'm completely amazed, shocked, stunned, you name it. You just couldn't possibly have done it better than that Kai Hagbard?
Kai Kai and Kai *shakes head in disappointment* is that all you got? It seems like you spend too much time at the anti-islamic sites .
Kai replies:
Just a few words here, you seem to be stuck with the whole idea of web-sites. Your accusations of me simply spending time at answering islam.org or any other Christian or atheist website challenging the religion of Islam is contradictory.
If anti-Islamic websites are such rubbish, just because they are websites stating some points, even though ex-Muslims are behind much of its material, then from a logical point of view the websites presenting Islam as the truth must be fallible as well.
Let me again clarify, that my studies of Islam and my debating with Muslims began long before the Internet ever began; thus it would be difficult for me to hang out around anti-islamic sites.
My knowledge of Islam comes from reading books representing both sides, and secondly debating both person to person or by engaging in debates on more public areas such as Speakers Corner in London.
When the Internet began I gained much knowledge from debating in the chat-rooms, but I think I have learned most from travelling and living in Muslim countries, both Asia and in Arabia.
Of course I learn much from the internet, but who doesn’t?
However, let me make clear that I read Christian and Muslims sites alike; thus I am very familiar with the articles on Islamic Awereness and Osama Abdallah.
Lame Way wrote:
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Bro, a range of Muslim scholars, and ex-Muslims, who have studied Islam and Arabic, state that the Koran has been tampered with, and changed several times.
The oldest Koranic sources you possess disagree by comparison, even one of them is keept in secrecy. The oldest copy found in Yemen just a few years ago contains difference on a large scale.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... /hafs.html
Kai replies:
I have been through this article, but could you please post your own assessment, otherwise we simply throw back and forward with websites rather than doing the work ourselves.
Lame Way Wrote:
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The Koran contains contradictions and scientific and historical absurdities as we have been through on this forum several times. Just to mention av few:
Jinns and shooting stars, and now supernovas which is even more ridicolous, not to forget the exact description (not poetical statements) but theological and scientific that the sun and moon orbit around the earth.
Wrote:
Are you kidding me? Post the contradictions =)
Kai replies
Well I have posted a few of these issues just recently, you can take a look at the most recent debates on this part of the forum, particularly the post on Jinn’s and shooting stars.
If you want to debate the issue please reply to me on that post, not here.
LAme Way Wrote:
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How do you explain that Moses read the Injeel?
Show me the verse and we’ll clear your daily misconceptions of Quranic verses.
Kai Replies:
Ok…
Sura 7: 155-157
Lame Way wrote:
Kai replies:
Again, could you please give your own assessment.
Lame Way Wrote:
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Why is Satan cursed for not worshipping Adam, according to Satan, remember, the matter concerned the worship of Allah only.
2.34: And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: and He was of those who reject Faith.
When God (swt) created Adam, God wanted to give Adam some sort of respect, value and position among the other creations. God (swt) commanded the Angels, including Satan from the Jinn, to prostrate to Adam as a sign of respect and not as a sign of worship. All prostrated to Adam but Satan. Satan was a mighty & a distinguished Jinn.
007:12. ((Allah)) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
God (swt) asked him what made you not prostrate to Adam and disobeyed my commandment? Satan replied, I am better than Adam, you created him from Clay and created me from Fire. God (swt) cursed Satan. Satan vowed to destroy Adam and his descendants forever.
Kai replies:
Well I know this, but then again, what is the need for a hierarchy in the heavenly realm, it’s a matter of fact that the angels reacted when told to bow down to a mortal being, whom they knew corruption would abide in:
And when your Lord said unto the angels: lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Will You place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Your praise and sanctify You? He said: Surely I know that which you know not (Sura 2: 30).
It would be a perfect reaction of refutation when suddenly heavenly angels are told to follow down before a created being.
In the Bible we certainly have people bowing down to mortal beings, however, such act is never done under the exact command of God Almighty, even though his intervention may cause such action (Revelation 3: 9).
Secondly, the ignorance of humanity, even that of men of God who approved of this practice or experienced being shown such honour, does in no way prove that such practice is acceptable. The early Christians did not accept such practice, when the Roman centurion Cornelius bows down before the apostle Peter, Peter says: ‘Stand up…I am only a man myself’ (Acts 10: 26).
John the apostle, under the divine encounter, through which the book of Revelation was given, is no position to withhold himself in the heavenly glory, but to fall down before an angel; the angels reacts immediately by saying: ‘Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy’ (Revelation 19: 10); the same is repeated in 22: 8-9.
But ok, if you insist that such practice is acceptable according to Islam, then go ahead; however, I strongly reject the idea of such an heavenly incident.
Lame Way wrote:
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How do you explain that the Koran claims to completely unite in the teachings of the previous Scriptures when in fact they are so different.
We muslim believe in the Injeel (gospel) and the Torah are the Words of God WHEN IT WAS SENT DOWN BUT have later been tampered with thus are corrupt and no longer words of God, hence different. As shown in these verse.
005.015 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,.
005.014 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
002.159 Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse.
Just to mention a few.
Kai responds:
Could you please show, exactly where in those passages it is stated that the Christians on a global scale sat down and corrupted the Gospel.
Secondly, would such a statement or doctrine not seriously contradict other passages of the Koran, such as Sura 29: 46:
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto him we surrender.
Or Sura 5: 68:
Say: O people of the Scripture! You have nothing (of guidance) till you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord…
Lame Way wrote:
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How about the special right given to Muhammad to marry any and as many womens he finds interesting and attractive, even a seven year old girl (I cant remember did he marry her before the revelation was given, well, what difference does it make anyway).
Since its too much work and its not really worth answering because of your unprofessional approach I'll refer you to a site.
http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm
Kai responds:
Does Osama really answer the question? Does he really touch the passages of dispute? And again may I encourage you to make your own personal assessment.
Lame Way wrote:
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Would God really allow his followers to rape slave girls and even captives of war?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/right_hand_possession.htm
Kai responds:
Again does answering-Christianity really refute the argument, read the article again.
And then again, could you present your own personal assessment.
Lame Way wrote:
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Why do the earliest mosques in Egypt turn toward Jerusalem rather than Mecca? Is it possible that Islam merely was pure Judaims before year 700 AD and the creating of the Koran (the traveller Jacob Odess reveals the same from Medina 705, Muslims are still praying toward Jerusalem).
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How about the idea that Muhammad was influenced by Satan, as the Koran also indicates.
Mind showing the verse? Or verses?
Kai responds:
The whole issue about mosques turning toward Jerusalem are a matter of archaeology.
As for Muhammad and the influence of Satan:
TABARI volume 6, page 107
The messenger of God was eager for the welfare of his people and wished to effect a reconciliation with them in whatever ways he could. It is said that he wanted to find a way to do this, and what happened was a follows. (170)
Ibn Humayd - Salamah-Muhammad b. Ishaq - Yazid b. Ziyad al-Madani - Muhammad b. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated with himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed
171)
"By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire..."
and when he came to the words:
Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
"These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (172)
When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they listened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their prophet, trusting in the message which he had brought and following his example. Those polytheists of the Quraysh and others who were in the mosque (173) likewise prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer orunbeliever, who did not prostrate himself. The one exception was al-Walid b. Al-Mughirah, who was a very old man and could not prostrate himself; but he took a handful of soil from the valley in his hand and bowed over that. Then they all dispersed from the mosque. The Quraysh left delighted by the mention of their gods which they had hared, saying,"Muhammad has mentioned our goes in the most favorable way possible, stating in his recitation that they are the high flying cranes and that their intercession is received with approval."
The news of the prostration reached those of the messenger of God's companions who were in Abyssinia and people said, "The Quraysh have accepted Islam." Some rose up to return, while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, "Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you." Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed:
"Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation (umniyyah). God abrogates what Satan casts. The God established his verses. God is knower, wise. (174)
Thus God removed the sorrow from his messenger, reassured him about that which he had feared and cancelled the words which Satan had cast on his tongue, that their gods were the high flying cranes whose intercession was accepted with approval. He now revealed, following the mention of "al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other," the words:
"Are yours the males and his the females? That indeed were an unfair division! They are but names which you have named, you and your fathers."
to the words:
to whom he wills and accept (175)
This means, how can the intercession of their gods avail with God?
When Muhammad brought a revelation from God canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His prophet, the Quraysh said,"Muhammad has repented of what he said concerning the position of your gods with God, and has altered it and brought something else." Those two phrases which Satan had cast on the tongue of the Messenger of God were in the mouth of every polytheists, and they became even more ill-disposed and more violent in their persecution of those of them who had accepted Islam and followed the messenger of God.
Those of the companions of the messenger of God who had left Abyssinia upon hearing that Quraysh had accepted Islam by prostration themselves with the messenger of God now approached.When they were near Mecca, they heard that the report that the people of Mecca had accepted Islam was false. Not one of them entered Mecca without obtaining protection or entering secretly. Among those who came to Mecca and remained there until they emigrated to al-Madinah and were present with the prophet at Badr, were, from the Banu Abd Shams b. Abd Manaf b. Quasyy, Uthman b. Afafan b. Abi al-As b. Umayyah, accompanied by his wife Ruaqyyah the daughter of the messenger of God; Abu Hudhayfah b. Utbah b. Rabiah b. Abd Shames, accompanied by his wife Sahlah bt. Suhalyl; together with a number of others numbering thirty three men.
Al-Qasim b. Al-Hasan - al Husayn b. Daud - Hajja - Abu Mashar - Muhammad b. Kab al-Qurazi and Muhammad b. Qays: The messenger of God was sitting in a large gathering of Quraysh, wishing that day that no revelation would come to him from God which could cause them to turn away from him. Then God revealed:
"By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived..."
and the Messenger of God recited it until he came to:
"Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?"
when Satan cast on his tongue two phrases:
"These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is to be desired. (176)
He uttered them and went on to complete the surah. When he prostrated himself at the end of the surah, the whole company prostrated themselves with him. Al-Walid b. al-Mughirah raised some dust to his forehead and bowed over that, since he was a very old man and could not prostrate himself. They were satisfied with what Muhammad had uttered and said, "We recognize that it is God who gives life and death, who creates and who provides sustenance, but if these gods of ours intercede for us with him, and if you give them a share, we are with you."
That evening Gabriel came to him and reviewed the surah with him, and when he reached the two phrases which Satan had cast upon his tongue he said, "I did not bring you these two." Then the messenger of God said, "I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to him words which He has not spoken." Then God revealed to him:
"And they indeed strove hard to beguile you away from what we have revealed to you, that you should invent other than it against us...
to the words:
"and then you would have found no helper against us" (177)
He remained grief stricken and anxious until the revelation of the verse:
"Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you... to the words...God is knower, wise. (178)
When those who had emigrated to Abyssinia heard that all the people of Mecca had accepted Islam, they returned to their clans, saying,"They are more dear to us"; but they found that the people had reversed their decision when God cancelled what Satan had cast upon the messenger of God's tongue.
Sahih Bukhari does refer to the same incident when Sura Star was revealed, and certainly it does reveal that Muslim and pagans bowed down in worship when Sura Star was revealed.
Sahih Bukhari 6.385 Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him.
There are several Koranic indications to the event as well, first Sura Star (53: 19-20), which has been changed or abrogated:
Have you thought upon Al Lat and Al ‘Uzza and Manat, the third the other.
Sura 22: 52-53 says:
Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before you but when he recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolishes that which Satan proposes. Then Allah establishes His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise.
And Sura 17: 73-75:
And they indeed strove hard to beguile you (Muhammad) away from that with which We have inspired you, that you should invent other than it against Us; and then would they have accepted you as a friend.
Lame Way wrote:
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How do you explain the burning of Korans? What did they have to hide? And how do we find out anyway since there are no real evidences except oral transmission, which is highly questionable (can we even believe the collection of Islamic traditions?).
All copy and paste from an anti-islamic site. If you read the article you wouldn’t ask this question.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
Kai responds:
Could you please present your own personal assessment.
Well bro, hope you don’t hate me for replying again, I hope you don’t consider me your enemy; what I am proposing is that we both make our personal assessments and then we can debate.
Remember the negative statement were not inaugurated by me, you were the one who stated that the Bible is corrupt, and when such statements are presented you are simply asking for contra-attack.
God bless bro