Reply
Ok. That statement is fair enough only because obviously MOST heterosexual couples procreate. At least I do believe so...But since it is not the ONLY approved heterosexual function of marriage, it would be hypocritical to use the "same sex couples can't breed" argument as a reason to say it's wrong.
But marriage was not designed for homosexuals. That's the problem. God is the creator of marriage. If He meant for homosexuals to get married, why didn't He say so?
Yes, I understand all this. But this is RELIGIOUS belief. That's fine for your churches. It's fine for your priests and ministers to observe.
It's NOT fine to force secular marriage to be bound by what Christians believe. That would be giving them MORE rights than any other creed or lack thereof.
But you know what? Christians are not the only people who believe that marriage is something that should take place between one man and one wife, not man and man and woman and woman. And voters in the eleven states that passed laws to ban same-sex marriage would argue that it's not right for you to attempt force same-sex marriage upon the citizens.
Now we're going a little too over the top here....as just ONE example you couldn't possibly suggest someone who had a hysterectomy for whatever reason, could possibly breed again? This is again a religious belief and it's not good enough for atheist.
Wait a minute. I thought you said you were agnostic. Now all of a sudden, you're an atheist?
Also, if a person who's had a hysterectomy wants to be a mother, there is still adoption. I never said that the woman could bear children after having a hysterectomy. But if God wants her to be a mother, He will make it so she will be able to adopt a child or several children. In the end, it is all up to Him.
I'm happy you feel the way you do about the other issues, but I hope you eventually feel different about the last two.
No. I won't. Why would I violate my conscience by accepting same-sex relationships as normal and okay? Why would you want me to thumb my nose at God and say, "God, I know You said that homosexual relationships are abominations and that marriage is for one man and one woman. But justforfun over here...Well, he wants to get married to his boyfriend. And I really don't want to hurt his feelings, so I'm going to support him in his fight to make same-sex marriage legal. I hope that's okay with You"?
Here's a quote that explains it all.
James 4:4 - You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
And if I were to ignore what God says about homosexual relationships and marriage, I would be a "friend of the world." You may not like my beliefs, but I cannot turn my back on them and God and choose to support something that I know is wrong.
Consequently, that quote is another example of Biblical scripture not bourne out by truth. There are countless people raised in even the most fundamentalist homes, learning "good" morals. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses come to mind particularly...but even Catholic and every other denominations have had people that later on reject religion and "depart" from it.
But I think that the majority of the time, the children make the decision to follow Christ as well. I believe that if my family had been more active in the Christian faith -- if my parents had shared the Gospel with me -- then there would have been a chance that I would have become a Christian much sooner. The parents' role as teachers is vital when it comes to a child's future, especially in the spiritual sense.
Although the quote is rooted in the biological knowledge that young children are FAR more impressionable and so the imprinting such a dogmatism has on them is much more intense and lasting than something learned as an adult. It's one of the reason so many adults go through year of anxiety and guilt over perfectly neutral issues like masturbation.
Or perhaps it's their conscience telling them the truth? My parents never discussed masturbation with me, mainly because they probably didn't feel the need to discuss
anything about sex with me. And yet, I somehow knew that it was wrong for me to give in to this urge. (Thankfully, I've walked away from that, and I've been "clean" for a while now.) That was my conscience. My knowledge did not come outside influences. It came from within me.
AND there are many gay couples who want to, and DO, raise their children in religion. Of course they have to be of a liberal stance on interpreting it I would assume, but if that's what they want to do...?
But they are not teaching the children God's truth about homosexual relationships, thereby teaching the kids that God is a liar and that He didn't really mean that same-sex relationships are wrong. Perhaps He was just kidding? Looking for a laugh? Or perhaps they'll use the famous, "The Bible was written by men, and the guy who wrote Leviticus hated homosexuals" statement. Who's to say that the, "Well, I don't like what this commandment says, so I'm going to ignore it and deny the fact that it is from God" argument won't be used by murderers, rapists, etc.? That argument can do a lot of damage, justforfun. Not to mention the fact that it is a lie, created by Satan himself, to pull people from God's truth.
I didn't say it didn't mean it. I forget the context I used it in, and I can't seem to find my line....
Here's your exact quote, found here:
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=20
Wrong. This is exactly what is wrong with people who can't look past the idea of "believing" as being a part of every opinion. Trust is more of a confidence in something based on a good reaon such as a person who has always been kind is trusted to be kind in the future. Faith is belief in what you cannot prove.
They have instigated the bebate, but they are protesting a law that is UNFAIR. That's the necessary way to effect change.
They can protest it
legally, justforfun. But it was wrong of them to thumb their noses at the law.
Here's something from the
Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia about the purposes of marriage.
Purposes of Marriage
1. The propagation of the human race. It is the God-ordained way to develop a species called mankind. In the case of angelic beings, God created each of them as separate individuals; but in the case of humanity, He created one male and one female and the whole race is descended from the first pair. God could have redeemed the separately created fallen angels only by Christ's dying individually for each one, but He could redeem the race of Adam by Christ's dying once, since it could be represented by one federal head. It is in the light of this fact that I Cor 15:22 takes on its meaning: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
God has chosen to beget spiritual children who love Him because of His sovereign saving grace, and to bring them into physical being through the marriage relationship. The sacramental and the propagational aspects of marriage thus become united, and the begetting of children becomes holy and for the very glory of God.
2. God's way to rear children. Children need a home and parents in that home. In the home they receive both shelter and nurture. From their parents' lives they learn what real love is by being the objects of the love of both parents, and by seeing real love reciprocated between their parents. Only from their parents can they most fully learn about deep abiding conjugal love, and thus be prepared to wait and seek for such for themselves. It is at this point that marital discord and broken homes have the most devastating effects upon children. The child who has not seen real love demonstrated in his own home is not ready to face life on his own. God intended also that the demonstration of real love between the parents, and between parents and children, should be the basis for the understanding of His love in sending His Son to die for our sins (cf. Eph 5:25-32).
3. God's way to instill in children the principles of justice and responsible government. Parents are to deal patiently and justly (Eph 6:4; Col 3:21), and thus teach their children what is just and fair. They are to illustrate responsibility and good government in the divinely ordered economy of the household (cf. I Tim 3:4-5, 12; Tit 1:6). The father as the head of the wife and head of the home, while conferring fully with his wife in a really democratic manner, is the one responsible for all decisions. This teaches submission to authority and a sense of real responsibility (Eph 5:21-24).
4. Marriage is God's pedagogical means to teach children of Himself. God calls Himself our Father and demonstrates His love to be as wonderful as the love of a father (Ps 103:13; Jn 3:16), as tender as that of a mother (Isa 49:15; 66:13; Mt 23:37), as intimate as that of husband and wife (Eph 5:25 ff.). Thus every relationship within marriage and the family has its place in demonstrating and teaching what God is and what is the nature of His love.
By the way, I just wanted to say that even though we are more or less meeting each other in a somewhat contentious way, I hope you don't feel any ill will towards me. You seem like a lovely person and I'm sure if we met in person, we would get along great. We're just arguing ideologies.
I don't bear any ill will toward you, though I am frustrated. I just find it hard to understand why you don't believe in the existence of God, when the evidence is all around you. I find it difficult to believe that everything that I see came into being because of a blob of slime. Just doesn't make any sense. However, I do believe in the Big Bang, in a way. But I believe that the Bang took place as a result of the world being created by God Himself. I don't believe that it just suddenly came into existence, without rhyme or reason.
People may not always agree on what's right or wrong, but they can still live together in harmony and peace. I think that's the most important thing to remember.
I agree.
A child raised by Christian parents will be introduced to Christianity but must eventually make a decision to accept or reject Christianity. The vast majority of gay men I know were raised in "Christian" families.
But you must agree that it certainly helps if the child's parents expose the child to Christianity and its principles at an early age. I know it did for my friend Lara.
Roman Catholic clergy are crossing the line that separates church and state to demand that legislators defeat the proposition.
And one could argue that homosexuals are crossing the line by demanding that same-sex marriage be legallized.