Christian/Muslim ThreadsScientif errors in the Koran: Shooting stars and the devilsH2O wrote:
First of all, when the Quran mentions "Shayaateen" meaning satans or devils it can also refer to human beings. Not all the time when the word "shayaateen" is mention that it implies to Jinns as you are interpretating it. The majority of the time in the Quran it implies to human beings. Also, not all Jinns are Shayaateen. There are good Jinns as well. The word Shayaateen is a title applicable to an evil disobedient creature. In addition also evil Jinns can take on physical forms.
Kai replies:
Let's get this straight:
Are these satans, devils or human beings (you are not being really specific here, but perhaps that is not your point anyway)?
And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans, ... -- Sura 67:5
Or as Arberry puts it:
And We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and made them things to stone Satans; and We have prepared for them the chastisement of the Blaze.
From the text it appears that we are dealing with 1) the lowest heaven, 2) the main objects are the stars who adorn the lowest heavens, which are also used as missiles, to stone or drive away satans, and the satans themselves.
Then who are these satans?
”We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars, (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits, (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side, Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty, Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness (Sura 37: 6-10).
Sura 72: 8-12
8 (The jinn continued saying): "We made our way towards heaven, but we found it filled with stern guards and a flame.
9 There, we would sit to eavesdrop, but now an eavesdropper finds a flame in wait for him.
10 And so we do not know whether evil is intended for those on earth, or whether their Lord intends to guide them.
11 Some of us are righteous, but some are otherwise, we are sects that differ.
12 We know that we cannot frustrate Allah in the earth, nor can we frustrate Him by flight.
Unless the Quran is referring to airplanes or space-crafts (which it obviously does not), there is no reason for asserting that the passage is referring to human satans.
Secondly where are we at this moment, somewhere nearer the stars? Which the text seems to imply if we look at the passage scientifically in terms of distance! But then, why are dealing with shooting stars? They are virtually excluded from the stars and the phenomena is local; the flaming fire or piercing brightness occurs as the stone (meteor) strikes our atmosphere and burns up by the spherical gasses.
Thus at this moment are we nearer the stars? Remember the sun is a star, however it is highly unlikely that Allah would destroy our solar-system, which brings up another problem, if shooting stars are stars with the size of the sun or bigger, how do we explain that Allah constantly is bombarding our atmosphere with such entities?
And again I need to know, where these incidents are occurring? Far up, by the edge of the lowest heaven? But then again why are we dealing with shooting stars?
Obviously, then the Koran cannot be referring to humans, unless of course we enter the Star Trek culture, but then again, are we able to detect the heavenly information even from the edges of our universe?
The Hadith’s share enormous light on the matter and verify too, that the devil-creatures are not humans but jinns, who seek to steel secrets from the heavenly council and reveal them to human beings.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 12, Number 740
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet set out with the intention of going to Suq 'Ukaz (market of 'Ukaz) along with some of his companions. At the same time, a barrier was put between the devils and the news of heaven. Fire commenced to be thrown at them. The Devils went to their people, who asked them, "What is wrong with you?" They said, "A barrier has been placed between us and the news of heaven. And fire has been thrown at us." They said, "The thing which has put a barrier between you and the news of heaven must be something which has happened recently. Go eastward and westward and see what has put a barrier between you and the news of heaven." Those who went towards Tuhama came across the Prophet at a place called Nakhla and it was on the way to Suq 'Ukaz and the Prophet was offering the Fajr prayer with his companions. When they heard the Qur'an they listened to it and said, "By Allah, this is the thing which has put a barrier between us and the news of heaven." They went to their people and said, "O our people; verily we have heard a wonderful recital (Qur'an) which shows the true path; we believed in it and would not ascribe partners to our Lord." Allah revealed the following verses to his Prophet (Sura 'Jinn') (72): "Say: It has been revealed to me." And what was revealed to him was the conversation of the Jinns.
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650:
Narrated 'Aisha:
Some people asked the Prophet regarding the soothsayers. He said, "They are nothing." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Some of their talks come true." The Prophet said, "That word which happens to be true is what a Jinn snatches away by stealth (from the Heaven) and pours it in the ears of his friend (the foreteller) with a sound like the cackling of a hen. The soothsayers then mix with that word, one hundred lies."
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 432:
Narrated 'Aisha:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The angels descend, the clouds and mention this or that matter decreed in the Heaven. The devils listen stealthily to such a matter, come down to inspire the soothsayers with it, and the latter would add to it one-hundred lies of their own."
H2O wrote:
For you to speak about spirituality is based on your own beliefs. You do not know how the the physical world affect the spiritual or in sence of the this issue , how fire or ice affects the non physical reality. Dont we all believe that on the day of Jugement Iblis the devil will go to hell a place of fire torment and punishment. I think our beliefs together defines that fire have some sort of affect on the spectral reality just like it does the physical.
Kai replies:
I agree with you that the time is coming when men and devils will be frying in hell, however, Hell is a place and a punishment created for such specific torture, why do you assume that the same laws apply for our universe.
Hell cannot even apply to the physical realm, as you burn, but you don’t burn up; in other words we cannot apply hell fire and condition to explain present realities.
In case you are right, devils cannot live in the North pool (or is that what you assert?), secondly surround your house and family with a fiery fire and you will be protected from the jinns, or lets exceed the ghost busters and decide to take no prisoners, why not apply a flame-caster.
H2O wrote:
Science cannot define clearly spirituality in the existence of a parallel reality to our own. For you to bring that up is also a cheap shop. Would you like us to say "The trinity or Jesus being G-d is a scientific problem" ?
Kai replies:
We are not talking about rocks being piled at the Trinity, if that is your
comparison, those who believe in the Trinity, believe in Incarnation, that a part of the God-head became man, and I thought everything was indeed possible to God? There is no scientific paradox here! Unless you reject miracles of course! But this is a side-tracking issue.
H20 wrote:
The quranic verse that you are questioning is dealing with both physical and non physical realities. Science can only explain the Phyisical.
Kai replies:
The issue I was dealing with was primarily why stars can be shooting stars (for several reasons) and what such effect would have on the earth.
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