Trinity DebateTrinity debateAineo wrote:Evangelion, Huldah, and Adampastor have correctly shown that “elohiym” does not always indicate plurality in Hebrew grammar, however, they have yet to address the simple fact that even in the OT God’s Spirit is portrayed as a separate force or personality as shown in Genesis 1:2.
Genesis 1:2 does not show that the Spirit of God is a "separate force of personality."
Also they have not shown that “echad” only means one since it can also mean a “compound unity”.
Show me the place where echad means "compound unity."
One (echad) of grapes is a compound unity of multiple grapes;
Um, the Bible doesn't say "One [ echad]) of grapes", it says "One [ echad] bunch of grapes." The plurality is in bunch, meaning a group of grapes.
one (echad) herd is a compound unity of many animals.
Here the plurality is in herd, meaning a group of animals.
com·pound1 P Pronunciation Key (k m-pound , k m-, k m pound )
v. com·pound·ed, com·pound·ing, com·pounds
v. tr.
1. To combine so as to form a whole; mix.
2. To produce or create by combining two or more ingredients or parts: pharmacists compounding prescriptions.
3. To settle (a debt, for example) by agreeing on an amount less than the claim; adjust.
4. To compute (interest) on the principal and accrued interest.
5. To add to; increase: High winds compounded the difficulties of the firefighters.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search? ... ompounding
u·ni·ty P Pronunciation Key (y n -t )
n. pl. u·ni·ties
1. The state or quality of being one; singleness.
2. The state or quality of being in accord; harmony.
3.
a. The combination or arrangement of parts into a whole; unification.
b. A combination or union thus formed.
4. Singleness or constancy of purpose or action; continuity: “In an army you need unity of purpose” (Emmeline Pankhurst).
5.
a. An ordering of all elements in a work of art or literature so that each contributes to a unified aesthetic effect.
b. The effect thus produced.
6. One of the three principles of dramatic structure derived by French neoclassicists from Aristotle's Poetics, stating that a drama should have but one plot, which should take place in a single day and be confined to a single locale.
7. Mathematics.
a. The number 1.
b. See identity element.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unity
This adds absolutely nothing to the debate because it is totally irrelevant.
The phrasing of Deuteronomy 6:4 is interesting.
I suppose it might be interesting to somebody who doesn't really know much about Hebrew.
Deuteronomy 6:4
This does not mean Jehovah is one God, Jehovah alone (Abenezra), for in that case lªbadow (OT:905) yªhaaowh (OT:3068 ) would be used instead of 'echaad (OT:259) yªhaaowh (OT:3068 ); still less Jehovah our God, namely, Jehovah is one (J. H. Michaelis). 'echaad (OT:259) yªhaaowh (OT:3068) together form the predicate of the sentence. The idea is not, Jehovah our God is one (the only) God, but "one (or the only) Jehovah:" not in this sense, however, that "He has not adopted one mode of revelation or appearance here and another there, but one mode only, viz., the revelation which Israel had received" (Schultz); for Jehovah never denotes merely a mode in which the true God is revealed or appears, but God as the absolute, unconditioned, or God according to the absolute independence and constancy of His actions (see pp. 45-47). Hence what is predicated here of Jehovah (Jehovah one) does not relate to the unity of God, but simply states that it is to Him alone that the name Jehovah rightfully belongs, that He is the one absolute God, to whom no other Elohim can be compared. This is also the meaning of the same expression in Zechariah 14:9, where the words added, "and His name one," can only signify that in the future Jehovah would be acknowledged as the one absolute God, as King over all the earth. This clause not merely precludes polytheism, but also syncretism, which reduces the one absolute God to a national deity, a Baal (Hosea 2:18 ), and in fact every form of theism and deism, which creates for itself a supreme God according to philosophical abstractions and ideas. For Jehovah, although the absolute One, is not an abstract notion like "absolute being" or "the absolute idea," but the absolutely living God, as He made Himself known in His deeds in Israel for the salvation of the whole world.
(from Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)
This is equally irrelevant.
Acts 5:28-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
NAS
Acts 13:23-24
23 "From the offspring of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, 24 after John had proclaimed before His coming a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. NAS
Titus 1:1-4
1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 to Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior. NAS
Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. NAS
2 Peter 1:1-3
1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. NAS
Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. NAS
The Bible authors call God and Jesus our Savior - interchangeably.
No, they call God and Jesus "our Saviour" individually.
This is because they both share a salvic role. The Father is our ultimate Saviour, for He provided both the sacrifice and the means of forgiveness; the Son is also our Saviour, for he died in order to achieve our atonement.
And what are you going to do with these...?
- Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
- Obadiah 1:21
And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.
The fact is the NT demonstrates that the Godhead is not only “echad” but also a compound unity composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Where does the Bible say that the Godhead is a compound unity composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
The Pharisees understood that Yehovah has no equal, which is why they sought to stone Jesus when He said, “before Abraham was I AM. The Pharisees understood Jesus said He was equal to Yehovah, and that Jesus was saying He is God.
Click here.
BTW, why elevate a “manifestation” to the right hand of the Father if the manifestation is not a person?
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
We believe that Jesus is a person. He is the only-begotten Son of the Father, immortal and perfect, who died for our sins.
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