Sevryn45 wrote:Ignatius
Ignatius, who lived between 30 and 107AD, writes that Jesus was "God existing in flesh" in Ephesus 7 and in Ephesus 18 that Jesus is "our God." In Smyraeans 3 he says Jesus had a real physical body after the resurrection. He also says in Smyraeans 5 that only unbelievers say he did not have a real body. In Romans 3 he mentions "our God, Jesus Christ." and in his epistle to Polycarp 3 states that Jesus is God.
You obviously haven't studied the Ignatian epistles. Click
here to learn more.
Papias
Papias, who lived between 70 and 155AD, says in Fragment 6 he was taught by the apostle John himself that after the resurrection of the dead, Jesus will personally and bodily reign for 1000 years.
No problems there - I totally agree with Papias!
Mathetes
Mathetes, about 130AD, writes in his Epistle to Diognetus chapter 7 that Jesus is God come in the flesh, the very creator of all things, and is not an angel; and in chapter 11 he testifies that he was taught directly by the apostles that Jesus is uncreated (from everlasting).
So what? Mathetes isn't Scripture.
Please also note that Mathetes does not speak of a Trinity.
Theophilus 168 AD
Theophilus stated in Book 3.9 that there is only one God and he created everything. He was the first to use the term "Trinity."
So what? Theophilus isn't Scripture.
Please note that Theophilus' use of
trinitas (the word which subsequently evolved into "Trinity") did not mean to him what "Trinity" now means to modern Christians,
I'm willing to bet that you haven't studied his work yourself.
Justin Martyr
Justin Martyr, who lived between 110 and 165AD, writes in First Apology 13 that there is one God that manifests in three persons.
That is totally false. Justin did not write any such thing.
Here's Chapter 13 of his
First Apology:
- What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him.
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.
For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.
Notice that he says "we give to a crucified man
a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all." This is
not Trinitarianism.
In First Apology 63 he says Jesus is God but whoever says Jesus is the Father does not know God. In Dialogue 5 he says the soul is created but does not die, but a physical death goes either to heaven or hell. In Dialogue 48 he states that Jesus is God incarnate and pre-existed. In Dialogue 56 he states that Jesus, who is God, appeared as one of the angels (men) to Abraham. (Heb 1:8)
So what? Justin isn't Scripture.
Please also note that Justin does not speak of a Trinity. Indeed, he belived Christ to be a created being.
In Dialogue 81 he states there will be a literal 1000 year rain of Christ.
I totally agree! There will indeed be a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ.
Athenagoras
Athenagoras, writing about 177AD in chapter 8 states there is only one God, and in chapter 10 states Christians worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and refer to God as "God the father, God the son, and the Holy spirit." And that Jesus was never brought into existence, but was always with the father. In chapter 36 he Starts a long discussion on the Physical resurrection of the Body and says Christians do not believe the soul dissolves at death or in reincarnation.
Chapter 8 of what? Chapter 10 of what?
In any case, it's irrelevant what Athenagoras believed.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus wrote about 178AD in Against Heresies 1.22 says everything was made by God, nothing was made by any angel. In Against Heresies 2.34 - Souls are only created once, are immortal, and can be recognized like Abraham and Lazarus.
So what? Irenaeus is not Scripture.
In Against Heresies 3.3 he says he studied under Polycarp and John the Apostle when he was young.
Totally false.
The correct reference is
Against Heresies chapter
4, where he says that he merely
saw Polycarp but never claims to have studied under him:
- But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true.
In Against Heresies 3.9 he says Jesus is God. In Against Heresies 3.15 he says Jesus and the Father are the only true God. In Against Heresies 3.19 he says Jesus is 100% God. In Against Heresies 4.6 he says the Father, Son, and Spirit are the one God. And in Against Heresies 4.33 he says the doctrine of the apostles, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, is a very complete system of doctrine. Neither receive addition or suffer curtailment of its truths. In Fragment 53 of Irenaeus he says Jesus created the universe and is the God of Gods.
Who cares what he wrote? Naturally he believed that his version of Christianity was the correct one; all of the church fathers did. But his Christology is not the same as Justin's, nor is it the same as Theophilus', nor is it the same as Tertullian's, nor is it the same as the Christology that would be formed at the Council of Nicaea - and again, later, by the three Cappadocian fathers.
You have obviously never studied Irenaeus.
Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria wrote between 192AD and 202AD In many places he teaches that Jesus is God. In Stromata 3.14 he says souls do not pre-exist. In Stromata 5.12 he says Jesus is the only begotten God. In Stromata 5.14 he says the soul is immortal. God the father does not have a physical body.
So what? Clement isn't Scripture.
Tretullian
Tertullian wrote between 190 and 210AD. In Against Marcion 2:14 and 4:9 he states Jesus is God incarnate. And in Marcion 4:42 he says Jesus resurrected in a real body. In Marcion 5.19 he says that Colossians 1 teaches Jesus is the Creator of all things, and therefore God. And in Marcion 1.5 he starts a long discussion on there being only one God. In Praxeas 1.2 he defines the Trinity.
So what? Tertullian isn't Scripture,
He is also another person whose work you have never studied. Click
here to learn about his Christology.
Origen
Origen wrote between 200 and 240AD. In his Of First Principals 1.2.1 he states Jesus is God, and in 1.3.5 teaches on the Trinity.
So what? Origen is not Scripture.
He was, however, a famous heretic, for he invented the doctrine of universalism.
Lactantius
Lactantus wrote about 285 AD. In his Divine Institutes 4.26 he states Jesus is God incarnate and in Divine Institutes 4.29 he teaches on the Trinity.
So what? Lactantius is not Scripture.
The concept of the Trinity is Biblical
Nonsense. You have not even provided a single verse which even hints such a thing.
Church Fathers say so; and this is long before The Council's of 3rd and 4th century.
The church fathers to which you have referred are a very mixed bag, of which only a couple actually believed in the "Trinity" of modern Christianity. You have obviously never studied their work, nor do you understand how they differ from each other. (Most were ontological subordinationists.)
Copy/pasted lists of this sort only serve to demonstrate your ignorance of the subject.
I am assuming you guys are not Sola Scriptura, would I be correct in this assesment?
No, you would be totally
wrong once again. We are 100%
Sola Scritptura.
You, on the other hand, are obviously
not Sola Scriptura because you would rather believe the church fathers than the Bible.