Liberate wrote:Quote:
How does this contradict the number of 450 by Ibn Kathir?
Quote:
Whats the difference between 104 and 450 ?
Is that what your source says:
This is what it says:
The men and women Companions
known as the memorizers of Qur'an (al-qurra') were:
1-4. The Four Rightly-Guided Caliphs. However, Abu Bakr and `Umar died before memorizing it completely, while `Uthman and `Ali were among those who gathered (jama`a) the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him. `Uthman was one of those who used to recite the entire Qur'an in one day and night.
5. `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
6. Salim, Mawla Abi Hudhayfa -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
7. Mu`adh ibn Jabal -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
8. Ubay ibn Ka`b -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him. He would recite it all in eight days.
9. Zayd ibn Thabit -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
10. Abu Zayd -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
11. Abu al-Darda' -- Allah be well-pleased with him-- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him. His class in the mosque of Damascus counted 1,600 students, each ten with one monitor. If a student made a mistake the monitor corrected him, and if the monitor made a mistake Abu al-Darda' corrected him.
12. Abu Musa al-Ash`ari -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
13. `Abd Allah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was ordered by the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- to recite it in no less than seven days.
14. Talha ibn `Ubayd Allah -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
15. Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
16. Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
17. Abu Hurayra -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was examined by Ubay.
18. `Abd Allah ibn al-Sa'ib -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was examined by Ubay.
19. `Abd Allah ibn `Umar -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
20. `Abd Allah ibn `Abbas -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was examined by Ubay.
21. `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
22. `A'isha bint Abi Bakr -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
23. Hafsa bint `Umar -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
24. Umm Salama -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
25. `Ubada ibn al-Samit -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
26. Mu`adh Abu Halima -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
27. Mujammi` ibn Jariya -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
28. Fadala ibn `Ubayd -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
29. Maslama ibn Mukhallad -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
30. Anas ibn Malik -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
31. Umm Waraqa bint `Abd Allah ibn al-Harith -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
32. Abu Umama al-Bahili -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
33. `Utba ibn `Amir -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
34. Tamim al-Dari -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- and who used to recite the entire Qur'an in one day and night.
When the above are added to the
seventy [34+70=
104]Ansar who were killed in the battle of Yamama against Musaylima the Arch-Liar, and who were all memorizers of the Qur'an (qurra') [Bukhari and Muslim], the number of the Companions who had memorized the Qur'an rises to over a hundred [
104].
This number excludes the numerous Companions -- whether named or unnamed -- whose status of memorizers did not reach us through isnad, as well as the women of both the Muhajirin and the Ansar. All of this memorizing was mass-transmitted. The numbers of the next generations, of course, keep rising exponentially in identical fashion of transmission, and praise belongs to Allah.
Sources:
1. al-Nawawi, al-Tibyan fi Adab Hamala al-Qur'an (p. 31);
2. al-Dhahabi, Tabaqat al-Qurra' (1:24-50)
3. al-Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:70-72);
4. al-Zarkashi, al-Burhan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:241-243);
5. Nur al-Din `Itr, `Ulum al-Qur'an al-Karim (p. 164-166).
http://www.sunnah.org/history/memorizers.htm
They say 70 were killed in the war of Yamama in which total of known memorizers were 104. There reference were by the following scholars.
See the bit I highlighted in bold with large font, would you like to tell us what the phrase "this number
EXCLUDES" means
Liberate wrote:Pls tell us how the phrases in bold contradict the number of 450?
We all know you were a terrible at math.
I find it surprising how you can be so patronizing when it is you that is embarassing yourself and oblivious to the meaning of 'exclude' relative to the context, this is a pattern through all your posts H2O and this is the same trick you try to play with the arabic claiming since arabic is a "living language" you can utilise an english thesaurus to find meanings that don't contradict what was shown to you to be a blatant contradiction, btw H2O this is what Yusuf Ali says in his preface:
...In choosing an English word for an Arabic word a translator necessarily exercises his own judgement and may unconsciously be expressing a point of view, but that is inevitable
which is precisely what you do being deceitful with the ambiguity of an english thesaurus, yet claim you are without error.
Liberate wrote:Completely irrelevant have you forgotten this ayat:
Nay! This is a Glorious Qurโan, (Inscribed) in the Al-Luah Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)! (Qurโan 85:21-22)
It says there is a copy of the koran in heaven, is allah keeping up with the 1,000+ characters added by the dajjal and his scribes or maybe the above is a terrible translation and your translation somehow omits the obvious as you have done all along.
And there are different views on the interpretation of that verse...
And your view is correct?
Give us a break!!!
Some believe The tablets mentioned are refering the actual tablets the Quran was written on, and others believe it is that tablets which are in heaven.
I agree with the earlier cause Allah menitons the Quran was also written on pages.
What tablets?
according to you glorious tablets = pages? glorious pages that some ended up in the belly of a goat?
You mean the leaves barks animal skin, and memories of men were tablets?
If the koran existed as tablets why didn't Zaid simply just mention I went and collected the tablets of the koran from whoever had it; which brings us to another question who had these tablets H2O? Aisha and her goat?
Tell us H2O how do you reconcile what you have said above with what you said on how the koran was collated?
Liberate, you keep introducing one particular madzhab beliefs in Islam which does not constitued the Islamic world views. If you want to study the various madzhab you can go to the link I provided below.
The download the quran for yourself link which you tell us is a terrible translation? Where are your madzhabs H2O?, I have been asking you this for months, it seems you are picking beliefs from the sunnis and the shias and making a pizza out of it then telling us you are without error, show us one site that summarizies your beliefs.
Liberate wrote:The hadith only makes sense if parts of the book have already been lost and you need to collate it to stop other parts being lost. This is the only rationale I can see within that hadith it makes no sense compiling the koran if there were quraa left right and centre that knew the entire book.
It is biased rational conjecture on your behalf with the incomplete sources you obtained which are only from one perspective view. You sources are merely copy and paste from other Chritian websites which are not your own labored efforts in searching through all the hadeeths available in english nor the Quran which you have never completely read to establish criticism.
Most of my hadiths are obtained from muslims sources, I go straight to the the usc website, if you have anything we have not covered relating to the hadiths care to show them to us.
Liberate wrote:It was arranged in other to be easily memorised, was this the way Mohammed arranged it? Why did it have to be arranged in a different chronology to that alledgedly done by Mohammed?
It was arranged in its order the way the Prophet recited it.
Where are islamic sources to say this?
This is what your esteemed scholars say with hadiths to back up what they say:
(Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. abi Bakr al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, pt 1, p. 60) : ibn `Abbas asked `Uthman what possessed him to place surat al Anfal, one of the mathani, with Bara'a, one of the mi'in, join them with no bismillah between them and place them among the seven lengthy suras. `Uthman replied that often the Prophet received quite long revelations. He would call for one of the scribes and say, 'Put these verses in the sura in which so-and-so occurs.' Anfal was among the first of the Medina revelations and Bara'a among the last. Since its contents resembled those of Anfal, `Uthman took it to belong with it, for the Prophet had died without explaining that it was part of it. (Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. abi Bakr al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, pt 1, p. 65) Malik had a shorter explanation for the absence of this bismillah. The beginning of Bara'a fell out and its bismillah fell out with it.
(Burhan al Din al Baji, "Jawab", MS Dar al Kutub, Taimur "majami`", no. 207, f. 14) `Ali reported that the stoning verse had been revealed but those who bore it together with other verses in their memories perished in the Yemama.
The following clearly shows Uthman was placing suras where he thought they ought to be, not Mohammed, when did Uthman seek his 'prophetic' advise when he did these things? Or are they above fabricated hadiths?
allah didn't do a good job seeing you even admit there have been additions to it and there are numerous sahih hadiths that there are omissions from it. (BTW since Mohammed said the koran was revealed in 7 readings who gave uthman the authority to burn the other copies including those 7 readings against what allah's prophet had said?)
โูุงู ูุงู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โุจูู ุงูุฅุณูุงู
ุนูู ุฎู
ุณ ุดูุงุฏุฉ ุฃู ูุง ุฅูู ุฅูุง ุงููู ูุฃู โ โู
ุญู
ุฏุง โ โุฑุณูู ุงููู ูุฅูุงู
ุงูุตูุงุฉ ูุฅูุชุงุก ุงูุฒูุงุฉ ูุงูุญุฌ ูุตูู
ุฑู
ุถุงู โ
Neutral literal translation: โhe said Prophet said โ โGod bless him and grant him salvation โ โ the Islam was based on the one fifth of a testimony that there is no god but Allah and that โ โMohammad โ โProphet is like ูุฅูุงู
the prayer and the giving of the charity and the pilgrimage and the fasting of a ramadan โ
โููุงูู ููุงูู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู โ โุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู
ู โ โุจููููู ุงููุฅูุณูููุงู
ู ุนูููู ุฎูู
ูุณู ุดูููุงุฏูุฉู ุฃููู ููุง ุฅููููู ุฅููููุง ุงูููููู ููุฃูููู โ โู
ูุญูู
ููุฏูุง โ โุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู ููุฅูููุงู
ู ุงูุตููููุงุฉู ููุฅููุชูุงุกู ุงูุฒููููุงุฉู ููุงููุญูุฌูู ููุตูููู
ู ุฑูู
ูุถูุงูู โ
Neutral literal translation: โhe said a prophet said for โ โhe prayed to on him and he granted salvation โ โcoffees the Islam on five testimony that there is not god except to that โ โMohammad โ โprophet for ููุฅูููุงู
ู prayer and the giving of charity and pilgrimage and fasting ramadan โ
We can extract the five times a day prayer from the translation, it is still stating that allah prays for Mohammed and grants him peace/and or salvation!!! again you are dismissing the main point of my question who gave Uthmann permission to burn the other 7 dialects the prophet said the koran was revealed in?
Liberate wrote:Why don't you quote for us the Bukhari hadith as it is present in english at al-islam.com?
They dont have Bukhari it available in English, only in Arabic. I posted it in English translated by Dr Muhsin Khan which can be downloaded from the link I supplied below.
Didnt you read what you Lebenese Christian brother said:
Rome wrote:A simple reply would be that the word "fragments" is not included in the above hadith in the arabic text.
But neither does it exclude the notion that the Quran may have been collected by text, orally or even both.
In which I said:
H2O wrote:It gives the notion of both ie it was collected from written text and what was memorize as show below.
Or is it he also need Arabic Scholar Qualification in order to understand ahadeeth also is why you are over looking his confirmation ?
The usc website of Dr Mushin Khan's translation clearly has no parenthesis around fragmentary scripts for Bukhari vol 9 book 89 number 301, you pasted an english translation for Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 and refused to paste a similar english translation for Bukhari vol 9 book 89 number 309 from any site, let us see who is being devious here unless ofcourse you are attacking Mushin Khan for not understanding arabic? which would not be surprise seeing it is what you have been doing from day one.
Liberate wrote:In that case will you agree with Apple Pie on his exegesis? we can both agree he came with sources? Do you agree with what he said because he came with sources?
Why should anything you say supercede a recognised imam or arabic scholar?
There is a big difference between our selves and Apple Pie. He free lances his translations using other translations as guides then he goes back makes changes to what he believes is the meaning
This is like the pot calling the kettle black, anybody who has a read any of your translation posts will see you were shown a contradiction you run over to an english thesaurus and find varying forms of the contradicted word that was shown to you using an ENGLISH thesauarus ignoring the context of the arabic and making a mockery of it you then claim your translation is superior and whoever translated it beforehand into english didn't know what they were talking about, why should I believe you? Because you came with sources? Apple Pie came with sources too, adequate sources, it was an embarassment of a discussion, you had to quit the thread when you were shown for not knowing the diference between exegesis and translate, and this is the fellow who thinks his english translations are superior to anybody who has ever translated the koran.
Liberate wrote:Here we go again, didn't you mention in several posts that you became a muslim because of this alledge prophecy of saudi oil you now try and wriggle out of what you said by trying to argue in terms of semantics when the end result puts you straight back in the logical fallacy you have built for yourself...
Since you like to edit with your wishful thinking let our audience decide:
H2O wrote:Omega I havent forgot about this verse. As a matter of fact this was the verse I used to test the Quran with as final confirmation before becoming a Haneef. Now lets put it to the test.
H2O later wrote:So in my case, not speaking for no other muslim but my self and those whom may agree with me, how does Muhammad qualify as a Prophet of ุงูููููู G-D that satisfies me ?
1) The logical consistancy of the Quran.
2) The rational and challenge it gives
3) The wisdom and reasoning it applies
4) Its natural aspects it delivers that conforms with nature it self
5) The obedience it asks toward ุงูููููู with reverence and love.
6) How to live in submission to ุงูููููู with balance in life
7) How to treat others as you would want to be treated by another
Its message is direct, blunt, and to the point
9) The belief in ุงูููููู oneness and the uniqueness of his divinity and the exalted manner of His sublime majesty
10) The belief in the prophets adn that ุงูููููู sent prophets to all nations of people
11) The belief in angels, scriptures, the life after death, hell, paradise, judgement day, and the resurrection.
This is how I came to believe the Quran was from Allah qualifying Muhammad as Prophet. Needless to say my belief in him as a Prophet was not sparked by the prophecies or Scientific indications of unseen realities through out the Quran. These things merely increased my belief but was not the cause or the root of it.
What do you all the audience think ?
Who are you trying to fool H2O?
The first quote as to the reason you became a haneef muslim was posted Jul 08 :
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 09:51 pm Post subject:
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Quote:
...When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
Omega I havent forgot about this verse. As a matter of fact this was the verse I used to test the Quran with as final confirmation before becoming a Haneef. Now lets put it to the test.
Quote:
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise (9:2
Allah said to the muslim Arabs in the time of Muhammad that HE will soon enrich them. And it doesnt take a 12th grader to know the arabs were a poor nation at that time in which the Biazantine and Persian empires didnt dominate them. When did the Arab muslim of that region become RICH ? Who supplies the 1/3 of the world's oil and has the LARGEST oil reserves in the world. Is not Saudi Arabia one of the richest countries in the world that is now a GOLD MIND ? Hmm let see some fact here .
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=35578
You then try an amalgamate a post you later made on a completely separate topic, separate subject and totally different forum for that matter made over two months later:
Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 05:05 am Post subject:
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What qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?
This is a critical question as on the bases of:
1) What are the qualifications of a Prophet ?
2) By whom are these qualification deemed ?
3) What is a Prophet in semetic terms ?
Number "1" is based on number "2" which can be deemd by ones own opinion, or religious indoctrination.
When we are seeking for truth we set criteriors for our selves to determine what a thing is or is not by merits.
What is a Prophet or in the semitic term "Nabi" should be defined.
A "Nabi" is one who does not speak his own words but the words G-D commanded him to say by divine revelation.
This is the strict meaning of the word. Who is qualified as a "Nabi ~ Prophet" is merited by one's self and the rules he/she adopts as their criterior to determine who is a true Prophet of G-D or not.
So in my case, not speaking for no other muslim but my self and those whom may agree with me, how does Muhammad qualify as a Prophet of ุงูููููู G-D that satisfies me ?
1) The logical consistancy of the Quran.
2) The rational and challenge it gives
3) The wisdom and reasoning it applies...
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=42112
Liberate wrote:You are not making much sense H2O or are you trying to divert attention from your embarassing interpretations of saudi oil prophecy in sura 9:28?
And you going to get the same answer over and over.
H2O addressing OMEGA wrote:Allah said to the muslim Arabs in the time of Muhammad that HE will soon enrich them. And it doesnt take a 12th grader to know the arabs were a poor nation at that time in which the Biazantine and Persian empires didnt dominate them. When did the Arab muslim of that region become RICH ? Who supplies the 1/3 of the world's oil and has the LARGEST oil reserves in the world. Is not Saudi Arabia one of the richest countries in the world that is now a GOLD MIND ?
H2O wrote:Your right( Liberate) 9:28 doesnt mention any about oil. It mention a prophecy of the Arabs of the Region becoming rich, in which after the establishment of, they became rich, without it they would probably be just like afghanistan.
Why you are so persistant on this issue is amazing. What are you afraid of ? You are not going to change my mind and you know this, so what is it, our audience ? I think that is what it is cause you wont get off this subject. You have already stated your criticism and repeated you self over five times on the topic in the offense and I have already stated my grounds. But this isnt enough for you though you keep going and going and going like an energizer bunny wabbit.
I am hoping to show you just how rational you are making yourself look. You have said it is a saudi oil prophecy and in the next breath say it is not a saudi oil prophecy but somehow it still is a saudi oil prophecy! (which one should we believe? It seems you have not made up your own mind, and this is the fellow that believes his interpretation of the koran supercedes everybody else's?) says the arabs would get rich...and the saudi oil is how they got rich, how is it not then a saudi oil prophecy? will you make up your mind?