ROME wrote:And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgetten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise: (lxi 2.) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13)
Above we see one of the Companions testifying the existence of part of a surah that is no longer in the Qur'an because it had been forgotten by him.
Who is WE and how many others is being spoken about other than Abu Musa al-Ash'ari ?
At least the translators of that hadith recognise the proper usage of 'we' in relation to the context other than the capricious we us our you keep on spouting, do you think you are plural in majesty too?
Let me go on to liberate now lets see what he got to say. Wow, I am taking on all three of you know. I can imagine what the response will be.
Isn't this what you want? That secretly allah will allow you into paradise as you are fighting the kuffor on his behalf on their turf (surely this is major good works) as you are not sure if your good works will gain you entry into the houris paradise, why won't you discuss paradise H2O? Don't you believe you will get 70 x 70 chained houris per room serving you wine for all eternity? do you realise it is the carnal thoughts of a carnal mind and you cannot accept it? are you worried your fellow muslims will realise you really are all at sea all by yourself in your views?
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Are you a scholar of arabic and the koran H20? Why do you contradict koranic translations and tafsirs when you have no qualifications to do so?
Cause they are wrong that why.
No comment
How does this contradict the number of 450 by Ibn Kathir?
Whats the difference between 104 and 450 ?
Is that what your source says:
When the above are added to the seventy Ansar who were killed in the battle of Yamama against Musaylima the Arch-Liar, and who were all memorizers of the Qur'an (qurra') [Bukhari and Muslim],
the number of the Companions who had memorized the Qur'an rises to over a hundred.
This number excludes the numerous Companions -- whether named or unnamed -- whose status of memorizers did not reach us through isnad, as well as the women of both the Muhajirin and the Ansar. All of this memorizing was mass-transmitted. The numbers of the next generations, of course, keep rising exponentially in identical fashion of transmission, and praise belongs to Allah
http://www.sunnah.org/history/memorizers.htm
Pls tell us how the phrases in bold contradict the number of 450?
Would you care to show us the opinion of the five other scholars?
Sure:
1. al-Nawawi, al-Tibyan fi Adab Hamala al-Qur'an (p. 31);
2. al-Dhahabi, Tabaqat al-Qurra' (1:24-50)
3. al-Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:70-72);
4. al-Zarkashi, al-Burhan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:241-243);
5. Nur al-Din `Itr, `Ulum al-Qur'an al-Karim (p. 164-166).
Look them up your self. Get off you Online Christian Critic school and go to a real library.
Why don't you paste their views for all to read why dodge the issue?
Your opinion on the arabic translations to english is taken for what it is an opinion and fully entitled to it no matter how absurd it is yours and yours alone but since you proclaim it is incumbent on the majority and you have the onus on the truth and interpretation of islam, prove you are in a fit state to interpret the koran starting with your arabic scholar qualificaitons.
How owuld you know? Are you an Arabic Scholar ? I would like for you to show me where it say I have Arabic scholar Qualifications to speak on the Quranic Arabic. Who made this rule ? A Christian ?
What is stopping anybody whatsoever telling you this is what the koran really says and you accepting what they say?... where are your qualifications?
From those stories that gives foundation to your faith that you chose to reject, hadiths. Care to show us your sources that contradict the numbers let us see where their sources are coming from.
How many time are we going to tell you this. If the hadeeth conflicts with the Quran it is rejected, if the hadeeth coinsided with the Quran it is accepted.
I have asked you several times where the hadiths I have shown you contradict the koran the only contradiction is in your own conscience of what you think it ought to say.
hould we get into another debate about how your koran was collated and amended right up to the 10th century by the dajjal and his scribes (who helped allah by adding 1,000 characters to the koranic text), and how Puin shows the earliest koranic manuscripts to be revision upon revision.?
Sure lets go for it. And make sure to show us the difference of arabic words with tashkeel and with out. What is the different.
Completely irrelevant have you forgotten this ayat:
Nay! This is a Glorious Qur’an, (Inscribed) in the Al-Luah Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)! (Qur’an 85:21-22)
It says there is a copy of the koran in heaven, is allah keeping up with the 1,000+ characters added by the dajjal and his scribes or maybe the above is a terrible translation and your translation somehow omits the obvious as you have done all along.
If someone memorised something and they die, and somebody else comes to salvage what they and other people memorised into a book why would they be saying let us compile it before a large part of the book may be lost (are the quraa the quran???) does it not occur to you that parts of the book have already been lost especially when there are hadiths from MUSLIMS that state this is the case??
Nope. just says the it maybe loss not a prior loss occured.
The hadith only makes sense if parts of the book have already been lost and you need to collate it to stop other parts being lost. This is the only rationale I can see within that hadith it makes no sense compiling the koran if there were quraa left right and centre that knew the entire book.
"we have suffered losses at yamamma and we may suffer loses at other places so I suggest you compile the quran from the leaves, barks and animal skin you have and the memory of those that remember parts of it in case we may lose the koran" to you somehow this does not refer to actual loss being incurred on the koranic text itself, especially when there are hadiths that state such and such a verse is missing, it is unbelievable the levels westernised muslims will go to justify and maintain the lie.
"Parts" can you show us where in that hadeeth it say the memorizors only knew parts ? Seems to me you have started your Christian interpolated illusionary understanding has stired up again.
Tell us H2O when was the koran arranged in the order it is today, and what was the purpose of that arrangement?
Click to back page and read back to here and you will have the answer.
It was arranged in other to be easily memorised, was this the way Mohammed arranged it? Why did it have to be arranged in a different chronology to that alledgedly done by Mohammed?
Tell us H2O what ahafeez means?
It means protectors or preservers.
Protectors and preservers of what? (There is a point to this, I would like us to come to an agreement for once)
Now, I am going to ask you who said who was going to protect or guard the Quran ?
If you mean:
Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). (Qur’an 15:9)
allah didn't do a good job seeing you even admit there have been additions to it and there are numerous sahih hadiths that there are omissions from it. (BTW since Mohammed said the koran was revealed in 7 readings who gave uthman the authority to burn the other copies including those 7 readings against what allah's prophet had said?)
You are now going to start twisting applications of the english language like you do with arabic (strange thing is if koranic arabic is so clear a child can understand it why do you need an english thesaurus to find varying words that agree with what you want it to say and proclaim that all the other translations are in error and this is what the koran really says?)
No it plain and simple. You are an English man that doesnt understand Arabic culture and Jargon.
I am very sorry to disappoint you H2O I can understand the headache you are causing your mother, you are greek you can't change where you are from the first steps to curing the madness that has made you become a mujaheddin for islam is acceptance of who you are. Let me guess at one time too you were jewish by language too?
You really think so huh ? Ther you go again wiht you wishful thinking.
All the above were what you said yourself, either you have a short attention span or other people are using your nick to not remember things that you said yourself.
Do you recall a certain Johnny Walker of the taliban fame? Guess who he reminds me of?
Awe, isnt that soo nice. YOu ever heard of Hamza Yusuf and other like him from the west that are reverts to the religion and can speak the language better than National Arabs themselves. They are regarded as Arabc not by nationality but by the language.
I guess my point was lost on you.
You still think you are an arab?
How many times have you set foot on arabian soil?
Hamza Yusuf was a revert so at one time he was a muslim then he changed then he came back to islam? and now wants democracy to absorb islam (an oxymoron) . Just as you are evolving from christianity to judaism to islam and now to a haneef muslim who is going it alone as the imam of his own masjid and infallalible translation, I see Hamza Yusuf has teaching licenses where are yours H2O?, we both know when push comes to shove he is not up to your level right?
Go to the usc website link I gave, have a look at it and tell me where and what I edited.
You ever heard of guilty cause of association ? You believed it, and followed it, so burn with it.
Why don't you quote for us the Bukhari hadith as it is present in english at al-islam.com? Is this your entire argument it is translated wrong because because... I say so?
This is not worthy of a response...what are you trying to say here??
the size of the leafstalks stones, barks and animal skin??? relevance?
It has much relevance. Size determines the amount of space you will have to write something on. All those materials collected are in the plural. Size is considerable for the amount of information that could be contained in them.
Where on earth are you going with this?
Need I remind you that when Mohammed had one of his 'fits' it would occur at inopportune times his scribes would rush over to write the revelation with whatever they had to hand, are you trying to make an argument that the leafs, animals skin, barks e.t.c were insignificant? your religion disagrees with you, your hadiths disagrees with you (not even closely contradicted in the koran)
Anybody can claim they speak arabic,you have been saying this from the beginning that every known translation and tafsir that does not agree with you is in error, what separates the wheat from the chaff? where are your qualifications to say anything related to islam? You speak arabic so does Osama so what?
Its my opinion in which I disagree based on sources. And again according to who do I need of such thing to prove a scholar wrong ?
In that case will you agree with Apple Pie on his exegesis? we can both agree he came with sources? Do you agree with what he said because he came with sources?
Why should anything you say supercede a recognised imam or arabic scholar?
I was hoping you would tell your audience, you did say how did Zaid know he had the whole koran unless he was of the ahafeez did you not?
If you didnt get it the first time go back and read again maybe it will dawn on you.
You then contradict yourself by claiming you didn't say he memorised the whole koran when ahafeez/hafiz means precisely that somebody who has committed the entire koran to memory, H2O for a muslim apologist you are an embarassment.
You must have gotten bad grades in English when you were a kid in grade school.
You say ahafeez means a guardian?
Guardian of what?
It seems you have picked up the habits of your foul mouthed shia brother.
You your man worhsipping pathetic wishful thinking moronic casper inspired bat brains have made the same bad mouth disrespectful comments to us and our prophet every time you post something about islam.
Where did this come from? Your shia brother was foul mouthed and banned from the forum for being just that (Do you want to join him?). I don't recall ever having to stoop to insults to get my point across:
Let me give you something you can relate to:
Let us imagine for a second you are a sikh, you wear a turban you believe in the unity of god, you abhor pagan practices, and you believe in doing good works and giving to charity, you treat your holy book like it is literally holy with kisses and a sacred spot in your home sometimes a whole room just for it.
Your religion is dated over 1000 yrs after islam, but yet you claim this is the one true religon and the gurus came to resurrect the true religion.
You then claim that islam has corrupted it's holy book and the true religion lies in the works of Guru nanak and Guru Gobin Singh, and this was the one true religion laid down by God any other variant of this religion is because the variants have some aspects of the true religion which they bastardised, muslims are not supposed to cut their hair to a certain length but to let it grow, not letting it grow is haram and will mean eternal hell.
Or maybe you are a Bahai, you abhor pagan practices, and believe in the unity of God, and believe in private prayer.
Your religion is founded over 1200 yrs after islam, yet you claim this is the one true religion and your founder came to resurrect the one true religion.
All the other religions have corrupted the message of the one true religion ressurected by Mirza Ali Mohammed, Mirza Husayn Ali, and Abdul Baha, all persecuted and killed therefore proof of their prophethood!!!
What is islam supposed to make of such a claim?
Will you respect the views of Mirza Ali Guru Goin Sigh et al relative to the fundamentals of your faith?
Do you see then what christianity makes of Islam? especially when it makes claims that allah is the original name of God, arabic is the language of heaven, and the four sacred months not to fight in is the perfect religion from the beginning of mankind.
You expect christians to respect a pirate, murderer, incestual individual, rapist and an individual that would be locked up in the majority of MUSLIM countries for pedofilia but yet is the best example for all mankind whose actions transcends time? You expect me to respect the views of this fraud of a prophet?
Before you make the same accusation with judaism over christianity bear in mind the jewish problem with christianity is one of interpretation, never corruption.
Where is the proof that God (that does not change) sent revelations as poetry for the prophets as 'inspiration' in judaism or christianity, which prophet in the whole of christianity or judaism contemplated suicide after having an encounter with God or an angel of God?. What makes you think this is not the work of satan.?
If on other other hand you take any criticism of Mohammed as a personal criticism against you (which lets face it is the islamic mentality) God help us live in peace with freedom of speech. The moment you applauded the murder of Theo Van Gogh you lost a lot of crediblity on this forum, you showed the islamic spirit for what it really was lie that islam is peaceful and you are all about getting along with your fellow man until you get the upper hand then show them what really controls you.
Uhm they do not mention any saudi oil prophecy because it does not exist, who agrees with you H2O regarding the saudi oil prophecy? where are their websites? you are so desperate to find anything to deem Mohammed prophethood you are clinging on straws making you a laughing stock, show us one tafsir anywhere that suggests sura 9:28 is a saudi oil prophecy, maybe that verse about the moon being split occured when Armstrong landed on the moon right?
Your right 9:28 doesnt mention any about oil.
Here we go again, didn't you mention in several posts that you became a muslim because of this alledge prophecy of saudi oil you now try and wriggle out of what you said by trying to argue in terms of semantics when the end result puts you straight back in the logical fallacy you have built for yourself...
It mention a prophecy of the Arabs of the Region becoming rich, in which after the establishment of, they became rich,
So now it is still a prophecy of Saudi oil? but above it wasn't a prophecy of saudi oil?, I have to wonder if you really do have a short attention span, and this is the fellow that proclaims his translation of the koran is superior to every known english translation.
without it they would probably be just like afghanistan.
Interesting that there is no country under the banner of islam that can be considered as successful apart from fossil fuels which they didn't work for.
Yes ofcourse you don't belong in any sect and you don't believe in sects but you go only to the masjids of the sunnis as opposed to the shias, BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY SECTS. So you realise you need an arabic qualification to teach arabic and interpret the koran and islamic jurispundence pls tell us what you arabic scholar qualifications are I am sure everybody is dying to know.
No Shia Mosques around here. This is Boca on one mosque is here in this town. The Shia come to the masjid to. I prayed next to one on friday. Nope I am not a sect. I am a muslim a haneed muslim and that is what I am commanded all to be.
Is your imam a sunni by any chance, how would he feel knowing that there is someone in his masjid who is re-interpreting the koran for himself dismissing hadiths and tafsirs from respected scholars without a qualification to his name?
When? Good grief your posts are literred with ridicule and insults against anybody who has translated the koran into english, even respected scholars of islam, some of them cambridge graduates yet hearing you it sounds like they didn't understand english, where are your qualifications to dismiss what these people have to say?
According to who ? What rule says that. Remember this is not Christianity your rules as to the matter of religous interpretation doesnt apply to us.
Then in that case Apple Pie is 100% spot on in his exegesis that the koran proclaims that Jesus is God, do you agree with his exegesis because he came with solid proof from Lane's and Omar's lexicon which you couldn't refute except embarass yourself.
Going by your argument Osama is right to wage his jihad against America the beheadings of innocents in Iraq is justified, palestinian sucide bombers are justified they can all find koranic ayats to justify their actions, is this really your stand point? because Osama can find a sura to justify killing you as one of those whose speech does not leave his throat.
The rules are universal no average joe without a qualification to his name to interpret and teach arabic and islam to others will be taken seriously, where again are your qualifications to justify you re-interpreting and re-translating anything about islam to muslims?
Are you this arrogant to proclaim all the scholars are in error (even your al-azhar tutor??? because Al-azhar does not subscribe to the notion of the koran being interpreted relative to the context as you say it does)
Wait a minute, would you care to answer a yes or no question:
yes/no/yes/no/yes/no/yes choose which one like you do with our hadeeths
This is becoming childish, it seems you picked this up alot from your foul mouthed shia brother.
Do you think your translation is error proof? yes or no?
So far what we have presented as our own can you find error ? It still falls short in distance of being the Quran or like it but we got it as close as we could to the original.
In order words you interpretations are without error. I think you should take a honest look at yourself H2O, who do you think is going to take you seriously with an attitude like this?
When we are finisehd we will let you all know.
You are not finished? Didn't you say you wanted my email address so you could email it to me, and all this while you hadn't even finished it yet, let me guess you are making amendments to the saudi oil prophecy in sura 9:28 that would otherwise make you a laughing stock.
Excuse me?
You think the end game of christianity is to obtain houris (This is where the english whore is derived from how do you look yourself in the mirror with the full knowledge that you are doing all this to get whores) in a fornication wine frolick paradise called jannah? I am sorry but thats your religion, you have been very quiet around the aspects of paradise other than to laugh at it I am sure your fellow muslims will be real impressed that this self professed one man defender of the faith when pressed the best he can do is laugh at his own religion.
You will find out soon. It a promiss.
Considering the manner in which you applauded the murder of Theo Van Gogh I don't know what you to make of the above
Why don't you put it up on a website so it can be accesible to all if you believe you have the onus on the truth of islam don't you want everybody to have access to it?
Well before we do that we first have to learn how pathetic you are in you thinking , how you hit, dodge, run, attack, back flip, cart wheels, summer saults etc in your debates.
You are our labratory rats, we get result after experementing before procceeding with the goal.
I see so this is your purpose for your posts about the translations of the koran? If you expect us to iron out the bugs in your translation for you that tells me you are not entirely honest even with yourself, if you were truly honest with yourself you would translate it with the true root words (as you believe it) end to end and then let it be open to scrutiny rather than have christians help you proof text it, that tells me you are deluding yourself that you are honest to the arabic.
I would rather ask your al-azhar mentors if they sanction your free lance translations of saudi oil prophecy in 9:28 and that the koran should be interpreted relative to the context when it says fight those that don't believe wether they be the people of the book or not, I am sure al-azhar would really like to know why a non scholar of the language in which arabic is not his native tongue is reinterpreting their religion for them, so for the 1400 yrs of islam only now in the 21st century is the truth coming out courtesy of a greek megalomaniac who thinks he is the greatest koran translator, reinterpreter and hadith rejecter this side of the atlantic?
You want some oil ? Ok we will make sure we send you couple quarts for your olds mobile.
You are not making much sense H2O or are you trying to divert attention from your embarassing interpretations of saudi oil prophecy in sura 9:28?
Woosh, finally finshed. Well I might as well prepare my self for when all of you respond. I would like to carry on our short debate with ROME again.
Is this a subliminal plea?
Remember we are on the defensive here you are the offensive. We will stop when your ready to stop. I would like to see this top out to over 100 pages. Lets see if we can do it guys...
That reminds me of humle_guest that was his purpose for his a must read topic, it seems you and him have the same motive for coming on christian forums to see that your threads are the longest and must read, I have to wonder if you are this much of an attention seeker.