twohumble wrote:Aineo
You said I paraphrased you and mischaracterized your post. Then you only quoted ONE of the post you made regarding Ross.
Here is another
Part of his personal theology is based on truth but the vast majority of his theology is word of faith theology, not God's truth (my emphasis added).
This is a pretty strong attack. You have lumped Ross in with a huge cultish movement full of heresy, and you later said
......I won't back down on his theology
You have condemned him not with "suspect" theoloy, but with cultish accusations, dispite your later quote that softened the stance. Shame on you.
You know twohumble, when you read the whole thread where you got that quote I admitted I might have made an assumption that was wrong. The man I heard on a radio program was named Ross and was a charismatic who spoke in tongues and promoted the word of faith movement. I also posted that Ross' theology is "suspect" much later in the thread. So to go back and pull a prior quote is a misrepresentation of what I posted.
Now why do I believe Dr. Ross' theology is suspect (not bad theology)?
(4) The influence of the apologetic writings and lecturing of Dr. Hugh Ross, who teaches that the earth is billions of years old, and began with a "big bang," that death and degeneration existed in the beginning and have continued for billions of years, and that neither the fall to sin nor the flood resulted in significant physical changes in nature.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/se ... ewevan.htm
REGENERATION a word for the new life, the "rebirth," experienced by a person who puts his faith and trust in the crucified and resurrected Christ, a process by which the believer comes to share in the divine nature and eternal life of Christ Himself.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... 4/wic.html
Okay now lets get down and dirty. The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is not open to interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21), it was given to us by God so we can understand His will and purpose for His creation.
Ankerberg: Define death, then.
Ross: Okay. Romans 5:12 is speaking about human death. That’s when human death came into effect for the first time. Notice the text says "death through sin." Only human beings among all species of life can experience death through sin, and then Paul closes it off by saying, "Death through sin was visited upon all human beings." He’s careful to exclude the plants and the animals, as he does in 1 Corinthians 15:20-22. Again he limits it to humanity. And so, yes, there was no human death until the Fall of Adam and Eve, but that does not exclude plant and animal death. And hey, if Adam and Eve are eating, obviously plants are dying.
http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/science/SC0701W1.htm
Dr. Ross denies a literal six day creation and then procedes to interpret Romans 5:12 to mean physical death based on the fact men do die. Does the Bible teach physical death is the result of Adam's sin?
Genesis 3:22-24
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life. NAS
If God had intended our physical bodies to live forever why did He create a tree whose fruit allowed men to
live forever. So what type of "death" entered the world with Adam's sin? Could it be "spiritual" and not physical death?
How does the Bible refer to the “tree of life” after Genesis?
Proverbs 3:13-18
13 How blessed is the man who finds wisdom,
And the man who gains understanding.
14 For its profit is better than the profit of silver,
And its gain than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than jewels;
And nothing you desire compares with her.
16 Long life is in her right hand;
In her left hand are riches and honor.
17 Her ways are pleasant ways,
And all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
And happy are all who hold her fast. NAS
Proverbs 11:30-31
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
And he who is wise wins souls.
31 If the righteous will be rewarded in the earth,
How much more the wicked and the sinner! NAS
Wisdom is a “
tree of life” whose fruit benefits the righteous and wins souls.
Revelation 2:7
7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.' NAS
Revelation 22:1-2
1 And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. NAS
Revelation 22:12-19
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. NAS
The
tree of life is found in our eternal home in heaven.
God gave us His word to educate us concerning His creation, His will, and His Son. God's word has been around for millennia and is the foundation of both Judaism and Christianity. Over the centuries those seeking His truth have easily understood His word. However, after the birth of “higher criticism” and with the increase in “knowledge” men have attempted to reconcile scientific knowledge and God’s truth by
interpreting some portions of His word as metaphors or allegories. Those seeking to show Genesis 1-11 to be allegorical build their whole thesis around the fact that “yom” can mean age, eon, a literal day, or etc. However, how would any reasonable man understand Genesis 1? I consider myself a reasonable man and I never questioned the 6 days of creation as being 6 literal 24-hour days until I started reading what science thinks it can prove. Since we use “dawn” of the age of enlightenment, the day of the Lord, and etc. it then became reasonable (to me) to question the inerrancy and accuracy of God’s word. However since Genesis uses “evening” and “morning” to end the Biblical account of the 6 days of creation I had to rethink my position. God was being specific.
Now lets use some science to understand God’s word. When was Jesus born?
September 11, 3 B.C. - The great sign in heaven
September 11, 3 B.C. corresponded to Tishri 1, which is the Jewish New Year on the Jewish calendar. Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement is Tishri 10. You can draw your own conclusions but I believe this demonstrates that Adam and Eve had 9-10 days of spiritual innocence before Adam sinned.
BTW, MIT scientists did the research that discovered the date of the “great sign in heaven”.
Now twohumble you have to choices; 1) you can deny the inerrancy and accuracy of God’s word or 2) you can deny John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth. NAS If Genesis 1 is not God’s literal truth then Jesus lied.
BTW, I have not given up trying to identify the man I heard on the radio. My medical condition and medications have affected some of the finer details of my memory, so the radio interview I remember hearing may have been 10 or 15 years ago, not a couple years ago. There was a period of time when I never turned on a TV and Christian radio stations were all I listened to and since that was while I was living in Houston the time period I will be researching is 1991 to 2001.
Now back to "life" and "death", we are spiritually alive in Christ (not physically alive although our physical health can be and is affected by spiritual health). So if all "died" in Adam and all believers are "alive" in Christ if Adam's fall resulted in physical death why didn't Jesus' finished work on the cross restore our physical life to "eternal physical life"?
Now setting aside your scientific prejudices can you refute the above with Scripture only?
One other comment concerning using one word to
interpret the Bible. Have you followed any debates with Catholics concerning Mary’s perpetual virginity? The use
Matthew 1:24-25
24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. NAS
with
And so Saul's daughter Michal was childless until the day of her death (2 Samuel 6:23). (from a Catholic Bible)
I believe we need to heed Paul’s warning:
2 Timothy 2:14-15
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. NAS