Christian/Muslim ThreadsIf Jesus Christ Is begotten does that mean he had a beggininIn the Name of Allaah (God)
Seems strange omega that you would say I nicpick at the bible when Christians pick and chooses verses as to accepting some and rejecting others. No where in the old testament or should I say the Torah that Allaah (God) says He's a Tri-une God and no where in the Gospel did Jesus every say He's God Almighty, case in point. However, there are numerous verses in the Torah that reveals the True Nature of Allaah (God) ok we can debate or argue about Allaah's Name but to dialogue about the True Nature of Allaah (God) you have nothing. The Nature of Allaah (God) is what it is.
omega, just because you say there is indeniable evidence that Jesus shares the same 'Title' with the Allaah (God) I don't have a problem with that it's just a title. Other prophets had similar titles given to them; however, that doesn't make them Allaah (God). My argument is not about the 'title' it's about the Nature of the One True God. What is His Nature. Allaah (God)'s Nature is not like Jesus's nature. Allaah (God) is Jesus God. You mentioned ye-ho-vaw' "YHVW" actually wasn't even a name according to the Jewish people. The vowels came later. God Saves well Allaah (God) does saves there's no problem accepting that. Again I'm referring to the Nature of Allaah (God) and not titles. For example: God Is Invisible; God Is Omnipresent (Everywhere with His Knowledge not His Being) God is Omniscient (All Knowing); God is Omnipotent (All Powerful); God is Eternal; God is Immutable (Unchanging); God Has Individuality, Personality, and Rationality; God's Moral Attributes. According to your bible "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Your bible says God is a Spirit. What is a spirit? Webster's Dictionary includes in its definition of the word the following: "A supernatural, incorporeal, rational being usu. invisible to human beings but having the power to become visible at will… a being having an incorporeal or immaterial nature." The Hebrew word translated as spirit is ruwach, and it can mean wind, breath, life, anger, unsubstantiality, region of the sky, or spirit of a rational being. The Greek word translated as spirit, pneuma, can mean a current of air, breath, blast, breeze, spirit, soul, vital principle, disposition, angel, demon, or God. All three definitions emphasize that a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." So Allaah (God) is not flesh and bones and Jesus told them he has flesh and bones. In another chapter Jesus indicated that the Spirit of God does not have flesh and blood Matthew 16:17 " And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." According to the New Testament the Bible says that God is a Spirit, it means that He cannot be seen or touched physically by human beings and as such As a Spirit, he is an intelligent, supernatural Being who does not have a physical body. According to the bible since God is a Spirit, He is invisible unless He chooses to manifest Himself in some form visible to man whatever form He decided according to the bible that doesn't mean that that form was God Almighty. Remember God told Moses, "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live" (Exodus 33:20). "No man hath seen God at any time" John 1:18; I John 4:12 " Not only has no man ever seen God, but no man can see God" and in I Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." Several times the Bible describes God as invisible Colossians 1:15 " Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" I Timothy 1:17 " Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 11:27 " By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible." So there you have it Allaah (God) Almighty is Invisible. He cannot be seen. Although man can see God when He appears in various forms, no man can see directly the invisible Spirit of God. What were these forms that Allaah (God) decided to manifest Himself as? According to the Torah Gen.12:7 ""And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him." Gen.17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...." Gen.18:1 "And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre." Gen.26:2 "And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of." Gen.26:24 "And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not." Gen.32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen.35:1 "And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother." Gen.35:7 "And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother." Gen.35:9 "And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him." Gen.48:3 "And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan." Ex.3:16 "The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you." Ex.4:5 "That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee." Ex.6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...." Ex.33:23 "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." Num.14:14 "For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face." Dt.5:4 "The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire." Dt.34:10 "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face." judges 13:22 "And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God." 1 Kg.22:19 "I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left." Isaiah 6:5 "For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Amos .7:7 "The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand." Amos 9:1 "I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake." Habakkuk 3:3-5 "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand." Case in point: According to the verses above Allaah (God) was seen in various forms even when He appeared as a burning bush to Moses and Jesus was suppose to be in the image or form or an incarnation of Allaah (God). Yet was these forms, forms? Did Allaah (God) have a form, shape, image, body, flesh and bones? All of these verses above says Allaah (God) appeared...etc. Since God is an invisible Spirit and is omnipresent, He certainly does not have a body as we know it. According to the Torah Allaah (God) did assume various forms and temporary manifestations throughout the Old Testament so that man could see Him. Case in point: Yet, the Bible does not record any permanent bodily manifestation of God until Jesus Christ was born. This is a CONTRADICTION of what the bible actually teaches. Needlessto say, if God is a Spirit He can be everywhere at the same time. He is the only Spirit that is truly omnipresent; for all other spirit beings such as devils, angels, and Satan himself can be confined to specific locations In the old testament we find that Solomon recognized God's omnipresence Nature when he prayed at the dedication of the Temple, saying, in I Kings 8:27 "Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee" II Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?" II Chronicles 6:18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!" If this is true that the heavens of heavens cannot contain Allaah (God) Almighty yet you say He changed and a little puny human shell can contain Him. Am I limiting Allaah (God) no, it's Allaah (God) who gave Himself limitations of what He is not. He says He's One Alone, He's Eternal, He's Unique, He's Living...etc. He can't be tempted yet you would say He allowed for Himself to be tempted. So this would entail that He changed... changed...changed...He's Living yet He died on the cross...according to Christians. According to the bible up until the birth of Jesus Allaah (God) was a Spirit, Invisible, Unseen and without flesh and bones and the bible says Allaah (God) doesn't change, right? Allaah (God) Almighty changed His Mind? "I am the Lord, I change not."-Malachi 3:6, we are suppose to believe that The Lord Never Changes. It doesn't matter how much 'we' change, Allaah (God) is always the same, "yesterday, today, and forever" remember in hebrew 13:8. If Jesus the Messiah was God/Man was he the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.". Did Jesus grow in the womb...did he not learn...eat...sleep...feel tired...etc...All of this shows Jesus went through changes. These are all human limitation and imperfections. case in point: Allaah (God) is FREE FROM ALL IMPERFECTIONS. Yet Allaah (God) changed His Mind in the New Testament at the birth of Jesus. Some Christians believe God as a Spirit does not have a body unless He chooses to manifest Himself in a bodily form, which He did in the person of Jesus Christ. Some Christians believe God did not need a spirit body to do this because He could have manifested Himself at various times to other spirits just as He did to man.
1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." Other Christians say to justify Jesus being God in the flesh Colossians 2:9 " For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." and yet they say there is no possibility of separating God and Jesus, and there is no God visible outside of Jesus. Unbeliveable!! There own bible contradicts them. In Deuteronomy 4:15-18 ""Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth ... " :roll: This is a serious WARNING TO ALL CHRISTIANS AND SONS OF ADAM Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB "If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT "Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death." Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT "Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you." Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT "But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared." Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." Exodus 22:19 NAB "Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." See this tells you that Allaah (God) is a JEALOUS GOD. He wants Sons of Adam to worship Him Alone. The fact of the matter is that according to the bible God is an incorporeal, invisible Spirit is the very reasoning behind the Scriptures' repeated condemnation of idolatry. Pure Monotheism is taught throughout the old and new testament and "God vs. gods" theme running throughout Scripture. According to the scriptures Allaah (God) is at war with all false "gods" . On what basis? Allaah (God) is the Creator and not to be compared with creation in any sense. Even a Christian refomer by the name of John Calvin said
Of the prophets, it will be sufficient to mention Isaiah, who is the most copious on this subject" Isaiah 40:18 "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" Isaiah 41:7 "So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the sodering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved." Isaiah 41:9 "Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion." Isaiah 45:9 "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?" Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" compare this verse with Philip 2:6-8 Yet!! Christians say the scripture explicitly teaches that Jesus took on another form in becoming man "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil'p. 2:6-8) Christians when will you learn? According to your own bible this show how the majesty of God is defiled by an absurd and indecorous fiction, when he who is incorporeal is assimilated to corporeal matter; he who is invisible to a visible image; he who is a spirit to an inanimate object; and he who fills all space to a bit of paltry wood, or stone, or gold. Even Paul agrees about distorting the Majesty of the Nature of Allaah (God). In Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device." Roman 1:23 "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." Case in point...Note that to represent God after a human image is a perversion. In one way and another Paul was simply affirming the repeated teaching of the Old Testament. Deutoronomy 5:8 "Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:" At least paul was right on something. Again, Paul tells you, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device" (Acts 17:29). The teaching is clear. The Creator is nothing like His creatures, nor like any physical substance. Rejection of this Biblical teaching is the foundation of the sin of idolatry. "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth ... " Deut. 4:15-18 Yet Scripture gets even more specific by teaching that God cannot be literally "seen" by humans "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]." (John 1:18) "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (John 6:46; cf. 5:37) "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto [symbolized in Rev. 1:16-17; cf. Psalm 104:2]; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16) "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." (1 John 4:12) Another Christian the Church Father Origen wrote: Christians believe when Philip asked to see the Father, Jesus answered by saying : "He that has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:8-9). Christians believe Christ is quite literally God made visible - that is, "God manifested in the flesh" And they again say "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil'p. 2:6-8) 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." But forget about John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]." John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." Christians seem to think that Jesus was somewhat divine and somewhat human. But this is expressly what the creed denies. For orthodox Christians, Jesus cannot possess only some human qualities; he must possess all. He must be fully human. At the same time, he cannot possess only some divine qualities; he must have all. He must be fully divine. This is impossible because to be fully divine means one has to be free of human limitations. If he has only one human limitation then he is not God. The doctrine of the Incarnation, which took several centuries to fix into place says that in Christ God assumed a human body, it affirms that Christ was God-Man; simultaneously both fully God and fully man. The Bible nowhere teaches that Jesus was divine in any way and if he was only partly divine then he was not the One True God of the Old and New Testaments. God is All-Powerful, not somewhat all-powerful; God is All-Powerful, not somewhat all-powerful; God is All-Knowing, not somewhat all-knowing. Some Christians say No, it isn’t a paradox. According to paradox definition a paradox is something which seems impossible but which is demonstrably true but for an individual to be both perfect and imperfect is the reverse of this. It may seem true to some, but it is demonstrably impossible. Again the Nature of Allaah (God) is Unique. Christians need to understand this. Now, by definition, a thing cannot be the opposite of itself. A thing cannot be perfect and imperfect at the same time. The presence of one of these qualities implies the absence of the other. Jesus was either one or the other. He cannot logically be both. The Nature of Allaah (God) is just the opposite of the Nature of Jesus. Allaah (God)'s Eternal Names and Attributes are always with Him and He's never without them at any time. Allaah (God) is Infinite, Invisible, All Knowing, All Seeing, Self Sufficient, The God, The Most Powerful, The One, The Most Merciful, The Resurrector, The Sublime, The Beautiful, The Maker, The Originator, The Living, The Guardian, The All-Cognisant, The Judge, The Lord, The All-Hearing, The Master, The Perfect, The Witness, The Best Forgiver, The All Aware, The High, The Mighty, The Oft-Forgiving, The Jealous, The Spitter of the Seed and Fruit Stone, The Provider, The Omnipotent, The One who causes Death, The One who gives Life, The Creator, The Loving, The One who Listens, The Single, The Reliable, The Protector, The Everlasting, The Helper, The Self, The Light, The Saviour, The Bestower, The First, The Last, The Greatest, The Most Immense, The Almighty, The Most Wise, The Most Powerful, The Nearest, The Executor of His Command...etc. These are some of the Names of Allaah (God) and His Nature and all of that belong to Him Alone. Now compare these to Jesus attributes: The Nature of Jesus: lacking Divine Names and Attribues: "Jesus/God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3) "Jesus/God" "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "Jesus/God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "Jesus/God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) Luke 2:6"The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman Luke 11:27 "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." The Transport of "Jesus/God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) "Jesus/God" "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34) "Jesus/God" Matthew 8:20 "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Luke 2:40 "Jesus/God" Spiritual Development "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." Luke 2:52 Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "Jesus/God" "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Luke 2:41-42"Jesus/God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." John 5:30 The Powerless "Jesus/God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." Mark 13:32 "Jesus/God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 11:12-13 "Jesus/God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." Hebrews 5:8 "Jesus/God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." Mark 1:12-13 The Devil Tempted "Jesus/God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." Luke 4:13 The Devil Tempted "Jesus/God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." Hebrews 4:15 Like the Sinners, "Jesus/God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Case in point. True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.] Al-Baqarah 2:255 |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame