Christian/Muslim ThreadsIf Jesus Christ Is begotten does that mean he had a beggininIn the Name of Allah
In brief TruthSeeker, you say in the Name of God The Father - God the Son- and God the Holy Spirit....what is this?? Is this not three Gods in One? Who are you praying to? Who is God is it God the Father... When Jesus said in Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Who is Jesus talking to? He's talking to the Father whom you say is God right? TruthSeeker!!! you say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are One God Alminghty hmmm~~~!!!! Seems illogical to me along with the fundamental Monotheistic theme that's written throughout the bible. Who is God Almighty whom Muslims say is Allaah (God)!! TruthSeeker, quote what the old Trinitarians use to quote:THE TRINITY IS ONE GOD TruthSeeker, there's serious problems with this concept of Allaah (God) being One God yet, Son and Holy Spirit are not the same as the Father whom you say is God Almighty. First, common sense will tell you that if God Almighty is not the same as the Son then they are not equal and that nullifies any deity in Jesus (Son) in any way, shape or form. God Almighty is always the FIRST PERSON, GOD, FATHER, SPIRIT in the Trinity. It's never different such as saying in the Name of the SON, and the Holy Spirit and the Father. Or in the Name of the Holy Spirit, and the Son and the Father. It's always that the Father (God Almighty) is FIRST. Then we have in your bible that the SON is subjected to this same FIRST PERSON, GOD, FATHER, SPIRIT in the Trinity. According to the Trinitarians The Trinity is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each the same God, the same in justice, in goodness, in greatness[/u], and in everything that can he predicated of substance. Again in your own bible it shows that the Father is greater than the son and the son is greater than the holy spirit. Yet The Father is greater than the son and the holy spirit. Again it's never in the name of the Son and the holy spirit and the Father. Hmm~~!! Why is that? Then if Jesus was the second Person in the Trinity my question is what is Person in the english language? We have it in Websters: Trinitarians deny any form of of one person to another in power or eternality in the trinity concept? Am I correct to say that the trinity belief is that of the trinity, God the Son is begotten by the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father or Son or both and yet there is no contradiction because allegedly it's a MYSTERY and because our finite minds simply cannot comprehend the fulness of meaning described by these relationships? hmm!!! Did the old testament use MYSTERIES and PARADOX to talk about the basic fundamental concept of God Almighty or did Jesus teach Myster and Paradox describing God Almighty? Throughout the Church history for example: Tertullian, one of the major Church originators of the the first prominent exponent of trinitarianism, taught that the Son was subordinate to the Father and that the trinity is not eternal. Needless to say, Tertullian held that the distinction of persons would cease in the future Another Church originator named Origen, the first great proponent of trinitarianism in the East, also saw theto the Father in existence and he even. [78] Both men meant the deity of Christ when they used the term Son. . Again this supports my view on a basic thing. Jesus is not EQUAL to the Father in any way, shape or form. Some Trinitarians Christians try to use the of Christ to prove a distinction between God the Father and "God the Son" instead of simply a distinction between Christ's divine nature (Father) and His human nature (Son). For an example to Muslims this shows Jesus wasn't a deity at all because The Deity Eternal Attributes are Everlasting. Trinitarians try so say [/u][/quote][/img][/b] yet asserting the which is preposterous and absurb. God is God. Jesus said to worship God Alone and don't worship no other than Him. Jesus even said that he had a God in John. In John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, ." Who is Jesus' God? Who is Jesus ascending to? Throughout the bible old and new testament it condemns anything of a tri-une god. The old testament clearly condemns it. Jesus said it himself in Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God Lord:" Jesus didn't say God is Three into One. Jesus didn't say he is God in the flesh. Jesus said God is One confirming the old testament. etc..................................... TruthSeeker this is a whole different theme about Jesus allegedly sacrificing himself as a ? a man, god, prophet, messiah, to die for the sins of the world. A Man cannot die for the sins of the world. A father cannot die for the iniquity of the son and the son cannot die for the iniquity of the father according to your own bible in Ezekiel and in Deutoronomy. You forget to read Matthew 9:13 " But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have
Matthew 12:7 "But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." "And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allâh and a human being],before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them." (An-Nisa 4:159)
Its the same little argument without proof omega, a fallacious statement avoiding the reality of what is. Allaah (God) is the same God of the Torah and the Gospel given to Moses and Jesus along with a long list of prophets ending with Muhammad peace be upon them all. This is another topic I'll get into later.~!!! insha Allaah (Allaah Willing)[/quote] Well liberate, there's a big difference from Qur'an and Sunnah. Actually Qur'an and Sunnah go hand in hand. There's no Qur'an without the Sunnah and vice versa,... Anyway comparing Qur'an to your bible is like comparing apples and oranges and chalk and cheese. Qur'an is confirmed though our prophet's companions whom we know what their names are...their last names are....what was their life like...their character....etc. Your bible is just the opposite. You don't know anything about Matthew's life...his character...his last name...along with Mark, Luke and John. There's along list down the line about Moses and how he wrote his own obituary and other strange occurences in the old and new testament that I'm not going to get into right now. However, Qur'an is Pure, and untouched and many verses you quoted such as [quote"liberate"]And remember Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you confirming the law (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." Surat-us Saff (61):6 Many Muslims believe that this statement is to be found in the "Injil of Jesus". But it is not found anywhere in the Biblical gospels. Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet (Muhammad) whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures), -- in the Law and the Gospel; -- For he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; Surat-ul A'raf (7):157 Nowhere, either in the Torah or the Gospels is any mentioning of such a prophet to come, no matter whether we want to understand "ummi" as illiterate or gentile. In addition, there are other problems with Surah 7:157...But in Sura 7:157 is the problem that Moses prays to Allah and in Allah's response to Moses we read Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures), - in the Taurat and the Gospel - .... -- Sura 7:157 [/quote] It's in Qur'an and that's all that matters. Liberate you don't have the original Torah given to Moses and you don't have the original injil (Gospel) given to Jesus peace be upon them. We have it in Qur'an what Allah (God) actually sent them. It's confirmed by our prophet Muhammad's Sunnah. Muhammad's name and attributes are all in the old and new testament. Its funny Jesus's name is nowhere mentioned in the old testament but yet Christians know that it's Jesus whom the verses are talking about well just like Jesus's name is not mentioned Muhammad's name isn't mentioned yet his attributes are. So we use the same logic and common sense in this regard. Christians don't believe Muhammad's name is mentioned that's an opinion just like the Jews don't believe Jesus's name was mentioned so what's new. Nothing new under the sun. The Jews reject Jesus the Messiah and Muhammad. The Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah via. son of God/God in the flesh but really rejects Jesus by worshipping him instead of the Allaah (God) who sent him. Muslims accept Jesus as the Messiah via...prophet, messenger, teacher, lord (a father can be a lord to his wife) like it's in the bible others called lord not LORD) and Muslims reject Jesus being son of God/God in any way, shape or form and Muslims accept the last and final prophet/messenger who was Muhammad. Peace be upon them all. Verily, those who disbelieve in Allâh and His messengers and wish to make distinction between Allâh and His messengers (by believing in Allâh and disbelieving in His messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between. (An-Nisa 4:150) And those who believe in Allâh and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them (messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and Allâh is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful. (An-Nisa 4:152) Indeed, We sent messengers before you (O Muhammad SAW) amongst the sects (communities) of old. (Al-Hijr 15:10) Indeed (many) messengers were mocked before you (O Muhammad SAW), but the scoffers were surrounded by that, whereat they used to mock. (Al-Anbiya 21:41) Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)." (Al-Baqarah 2:136) |
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