Christian/Muslim ThreadsWas Jesus Perfect God and Perfect Man at the Same Time?In the Name of Allaah
John 18:19 - The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. Mark 12:38 - And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, Mark 4:2 - And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, Well omega, I guess I'm bringing along loose strings to tie in the dialogue because the bible clearly says that Jesus didn't have his 'own' doctrine. First thing First, the bible tells you to prove all things and hold on to that which is good. In 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." So in order to prove that Jesus wasn't God and he didn't have his own doctrine...the burden is on me to prove that. Jesus wasn't God and that Allaah (God) and Jesus were two different Minds, Wills and Personalities. As a Muslim we believe that Jesus was Al Masih (The Messiah) translated Christ and that Jesus was fully 100% human and 0% divine. Jesus was not divine or a deity in any aspect of the word. What is a Deity? According to Websters online: Middle English deitee, from Old French deité, from Late Latin deitat-, deitas, from Latin deus god; akin to Old English TIw, god of war, Latin divus god, dies day, Greek dios heavenly, Sanskrit deva heavenly, god 1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY b capitalized : GOD SUPREME BEING 2 : a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece> 3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful Jesus was not a Deity in any way, shape or form. Actually Jesus was fully human. Was Jesus a Man being guided by Allaah (God) let's review what the Qu'ran says first. In Qur'an Allaah (God) says "Verily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. "(Aali Imran 3:59) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs." (An-Nisa 4:171) "The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allâh and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat). Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)". (Al-Ma'idah 5:75) "Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Call unto those besides Him whom you pretend [to be gods like angels, Iesâ (Jesus), 'Uzair (Ezra), etc.]. They have neither the power to remove the adversity from you nor even to shift it from you to another person." (Al-Isra 17:56) "Those whom they call upon [like 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), 'Uzair (Ezra), angel, etc.] desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord (Allâh), as to which of them should be the nearest and they ['Iesa (Jesus), 'Uzair (Ezra), angels, etc.] hope for His Mercy and fear His Torment. Verily, the Torment of your Lord is something to be afraid of!" (Al-Isra 17:57) "Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves [i.e., the angels, Allâh's Messengers, 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.] as Auliyâ' (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism)." (Al-Kahf 18:102) "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" (Maryam 19:30) "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] was not more than a slave. We granted Our Favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel (i.e. his creation without a father)." (Az-Zukhruf 43:59) According to Qur'aan Allaah (God) says that[b] Jesus was a Slave, Servant, Messenger, Prophet, The Messiah[/b]. Allaah negates any form of deity in Jesus whatsoever. What does the bible say about Jesus' position in this regard. First let's understand one thing and that is that Jesus can't be 100% Man and 100% God. Impossible! It's like asking someone have you ever seen a Square Circle? As Muslims we believe Jesus was Jesus was fully human and Virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus. Jesus can't be fully human and fully divine. If Jesus was both fully human and fully divine then this entails that everything Jesus does is done by both the humanity and divinity in him. Needless to say, but everything that happened to him happened to both the man and God that he is. Therefore Mary gave birth to both, both died on the cross because you cannot seperate the two. It is impossible for Jesus to have been perfect man and perfect God at the same time, for this would mean that he was finite and infinite at the same time, that he was fallible and infallible at the same time. Yes Muslims believe that Jesus was Perfect in the aspect of Morality, Character, Godly behavior, Manners, Worship, Remembrance of Allaah (God), etc... We reject that Jesus was Perfect in regards to his nature. For example Muslims believe that Allaah (God) is Free of all Imperfections. Alllaah (God) doesn't eat, sleep, gets tired, rest, fatique, cry, pray, drink, grow in obedience, grow in wisdom, lack knowledge, grow in knowledge, submit Himself to another's Will, die, born in the womb of a woman, etc... All of this entails human aspects. Jesus cannot possess only some human qualities; he must possess all in which he did. He must be fully human and he was human. At the same time, he cannot possess only some divine qualities; he must have all. He must be fully divine. This is impossible because to be fully divine means one has to be free of human limitations. If he has only one human limitation then he is not God. To say someone is perfect and imperfect is like saying that you saw a square circle. A thing cannot be perfect and imperfect at the same time. The presence of one of these qualities implies the absence of the other. Jesus was either one or the other. He cannot logically be both. The existence of two persons occupying the one body of Jesus: one perfect, the other imperfect. You need for this two minds, two wills, two characters. omega, your creed does not allow this necessary conclusion and insists that Jesus was not two persons but one only. Jesus had to be either perfect or not, infallible or not, unlimited in knowledge or not. You cannot say of the Jesus was both. Was Jesus a Man? Read John 8:31 "You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” Act 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" What are some of Jesus' attributes of him being 100% man? Jesus was hungry. Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. The he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” (Mark 11:12-14, NIV Important points: Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit until he went up to the tree and found nothing but leaves. When Jesus saw leaves from a distance he hoped to find fruit on the tree. It was not fig season, and this is why the tree had no figs. This comment from Mark clearly, implies that it was a perfectly good tree. If the tree was barren. Jesus did not know it was not fig season. If he had known this, he would not have expected the tree to have fruit, and he would not have cursed the tree for having no fruit. The whole thing began when Jesus felt hungry. Case in point, Allaah (God) doesn't suffer from thirst, hunger, heat, cold, fatique...etc. It is easy to understand that the human Jesus felt hunger, and that the human Jesus did not know it was not fig season and so mistakenly expected the tree to have fruit. Could it be that the reason was that the human Jesus made a mistake. But why did the divine Jesus act upon the mistake of the human Jesus if they are one in the same? Does the human mind in Jesus guide the divine nature in him? Even Jesus's title 'Son of Man' is misuderstood by many in the Christian world. The name Son of Man is given to Ezekiel around 80x and in other translations of Son of Man it means human being, mortal, man in Jesus' position according to Websters dictionary it means human and Messiah. One entry found for son of man. Main Entry: son of man 1 : a human being 2 often capitalized S : God's messiah destined to preside over the final judgment of mankind. So far I have established that Jesus was a Man along with respectable titles and positions. Another human aspect of Jesus was that he was tempted by Satan. Matthew 4:1 "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." Jesus was tempted just like ordinary man is tempted and yes Muslims agree that Jesus didn't sin, he was sinnless in that regard we also believe all prophets were sinnless. However, to say Jesus 100% Man and 100% Divine then Jesus had two natures that are inseparable. Sometimes he acts as a human and sometimes he acts as God. James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" This is an Eternal Attribute of Allaah (God) that He's Holy. The bible makes a implicit claim that Allaah (God) cannot be tempted so if this is true then anyone who has the ability to be tempted isn't Allaah (God) and just ordinary man. Jesus was tempted even though he didn't sin yet he was man and not God in anyway, shape or form. When you say that Jesus is perfect God and perfect man at the same time you are saying two opposite things.
How can this be omega, Allaah (God) who you would also say is the Father, then the Son along with the Holy Spirit would be One yet not three different Gods are not equal. Are they really in Unity as you say. First Jesus himself makes it clear that he's not equal with Allaah (God) in anyway, shape or form. Example in Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Where is the Unity in the Deity having All Knowledge of all things. Allaah (God) has All Knowledge in all things. Jesus didn't. Jesus said he didn't know but the Father knew. There is no Unity because if Jesus was God the son why wouldn't he have knowledge of something that's Eternally seperable. In John 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me." Again, where is the Unity and the Divinity in this Triune God? Allaah (God) is omniscient, but Jesus is not. Allaah (God) has a superior intellect to Jesus and yet they are the same or One in Nature. Case in point, Allaah (God) knows something that Jesus does not know. Irrefutable proof that makes it clear that Allaah (God) and Jesus are not equal. Another point is that when Jesus was a young lad, growing up it says in Luke 2:52 "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." What would a 100% Deity be increasing in wisdom and stature for? Does Allaah (God) change, develop and grow into something he owns already? Can he be igronant and learn? I think not. You bible even agrees in Malachi 3:6 says “ For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” James 1:17 tells us “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” These verses assert that God is unchanging, and unchangeable.
omega, I agree that Jesus preached, taught by word and deed the doctrine of Allaah (God). There is no dispute about that. Yet you say that there's a Unity of the Godhead representing their separate roles. I say your sadly wrong. Jesus would not even accept the praise of a man who called him good so imagine if someone called him Allaah (God). Mark 10:18 "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. If Jesus would not even allow himself to be called good, he certainly would not claim divine qualities.
Is that right omega that Allaah (God) had a Mystery about His Nature, His Divine Absolute Qualities in the past before the coming of Jesus peace be upon him. Are you sure omega. Where is the Mystery in the Old Testament. Actually the Old Testament opposes anything of the Triune God theory in its totality. All throughout the Old Testament the fundamental theme is Shema: God is One and worship Him Alone. Just like in Islam. There are serious consequences for not worshipping Him Alone that can even lead to destruction. Just for an example in Num. 23:19 "God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent ..." "I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city." (Hosea 11:9) This is clear that Allaah (God) is not a Man. Again Allaah (God) says in Deut. 4:15-18"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth ... " Ex.33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." 2 Chr 2:6 "But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?" (KJV 2 Chr 6:18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! "(KJV) Isa 66:1 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" (KJV) Jer 23:24 "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD." (KJV) All of these veses tells us that Allaah (God) is the Most High and nothing is like unto Him. Yet this is clear and not a Mystery. Ps 113:5 "Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,"(KJV) Ps 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. (KJV) This is a Deity who is worthy of worship. The Rabb (Lord) Cherisher, Sustainer, Ruler of the Day of Judgment who is King. He Throne is High above all creation and He rulership is overall all in the heavens and earth. Didn't Jesus say in the bible about his kingdom not being from this world but the next. Allaah (God) is the King, Ruler and Judge in all of the worlds that we see and don't see. John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." again Ps 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. (KJV) The Qur'an gives a beautiful understanding on Allaah (God) and His Rulership in Surah 2:55: Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî (Throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.] (Al-Baqarah 2:255) omega, so again Was Jesus 100% Man and 100% God?? nah |
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