Kai wrote:Point 1: How can this be the main issue, when I continually have urged you to prove your claims? The issue of pagan influence found in the Koran is merely a sub-issue, until you bring some evidences on the table.
Kai, it was the standard of your whole arguement.
Kai wrote:Point 2: What speculation, we are considering the issues you have brought up.
So far I have brought no claims up, I have looked at the full picture from your point of view, and detected that the same traces of so called pagan influence can be traced right into the Koran.
So bro the speculation is not mine, I am merely elaborating on yours.
You were the one that brought Islam into this. We merely explained and clearified the islamic concept and answer to those other figures resemblance to Jesus on your inquiries. The topic of this thread was about pagan elements in Christianity not Islam . We can understand making here and there example or touching a little on Islam but rather than you explaining why those other religions had figures identical to the life, death, and purpose of Jesus you went into islam declining from the topic of this board.
Kai wrote:No prophet brought miracles in the same manner as Jesus Christ, and the Koran verifies itself that Jesus empowered to heal the sick, cast the demons, raise the dead, (and am I right) power over nature?
I posted some of the Koranic sources in a earlier source, anyone can go back and decide for himself how similar the Koran sounds to the pagan ideas you posted.
WRONG ! For you to make a blunt error like this about Quranic teaching it is without doubt you have never read the Quran before other than verses you picked up on by some Christian web site.
Jesus could do no miracle by his own will.
[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I(Jesus) have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
[5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.
David and Sulaiman were giving power and dominion over the forces of nature rather than Jesus.
[2.251] So they put them to flight by Allah's permission. And Dawood slew Jalut, and Allah gave him kingdom and wisdom, and taught him of what He pleased. And were it not for Allah's repelling some men with others, the earth would certainly be in a state of disorder; but Allah is Gracious to the creatures.
[27.16] And Sulaiman was Dawood's heir, and he said: O men! we have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given all things; most surely this is manifest grace.
[27.17] And his hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups.
[27.20] And he reviewed the birds, then said: How is it I see not the hoopoe or is it that he is of the absentees?
[34.10] And certainly We gave to Dawood excellence from Us: O mountains! sing praises with him, and the birds; and We made the iron pliant to him,
[34.12] And (We made) the wind (subservient) to Sulaiman, which made a month's journey in the morning and a month's journey m the evening, and We made a fountain of molten copper to flow out for him, and of the jinn there were those who worked before him by the command of his Lord; and whoever turned aside from Our command from among them, We made him taste of the punishment of burning.
[34.13] They(The Jinns) made for him what he pleased of fortresses and images, and bowls (large) as watering-troughs and cooking-pots that will not move from their place; give thanks, O family of Dawood! and very few of My servants are grateful
[38.17] Bear patiently what they say, and remember Our servant Dawood, the possessor of power; surely he was frequent m returning (to Allah).
[38.18] Surely We made the mountains to sing the glory (of Allah) in unison with him at the evening and the sunrise,
[38.19] And the birds gathered together; all joined in singing with him.
Jesus had no such power to what David and Sulaiman had. The powers granted to David and Sulaiman surpassed miracles of Jesus.
Moses, who is spoken of the most in the Quran did greater miracles than Jesus did.
Raising the dead, again is not an issue and is irrelevant. In your own book a woman had power to raise the dead, and in the Quran a pagan king was also granted power to raise the dead for a particular reason. Ref. 2:258 . And did not Elijah also bring someone back to life ?
Kai wrote:If you are correct, why does the Koran put such an emphasis on Jesus rather than on Mithra and Krishn?
The same Question should be asked " Why does the Quran put such an emphasis on Moses rather than on Jesus and John the Baptist ?". This is irrelevant in many ways cause the Quran puts less emphasis on Jesus. Prophet Moses and Abraham are more emphasised in the Quran, then David and Sulaiman, then Jesus.
Why not Mithra and Krishna mentioned ? Lets look at all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, where are they from ? Krishna and Mithra were not of that region, so only the Prophets were mentioned whom the people were some how acquinted with.
[4.164] And (We sent) Messengers We have mentioned to you(Muhammad) before and Messengers we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):
[40.78] And certainly We sent Messengers before you(Muhammad): there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom We have not mentioned to you, and it was not meet for a Messenger that he should bring a sign except with Allah's permission, but when the command of Allah came, judgment was given with truth, and those who treated (it) as a lie were lost.
Kai wrote:so, thought that Islam was meant to be universal, then why such an emphasis on Jesus only? Something makes no sense here
And you seriously need to go pick up the Quran for your self and read it rather than following what some backward minded Christian said. A person of your calabar obviously isnt using it properly. I cant see how if you had ever read the Quran before could say such an erronious thing. There is less emphasis put on Jesus in the Quran, rather Moses, Abraham, David and Sulaiman is who are emphasised the most.
Kai wrote:I know the concept and meaning of anointment, however, in your list of pagan influence in the Bible, the Messiah was one of the issues.
What you are saying merely contradicts your own previous claims.
Does the Koran ascribe this title to Jesus? Yes!
Is it ascribed to Muhammad? No!
That is of course unless you agree with the fake gospel of Barnabas in which Muhammad and not Jesus was anointed.
Yes Jesus is called Messiah. No Muhammad was not called Messiah cause he was not a priest. Did you forget what I said about the original application of what a messiah was ?
H2O wrote:...Messiahs ie anointed ones were priests that were anointed with oil for a particular position amongst the Levites and Aronites which was a consecration ritual. Thus was the original concept of the word...
Jesus was a Priest, and Aronite a descendant of the tribe of Levi, of course this is contrary to your beliefs. In Islam he was not a descendant of David. The mother of Jesus, Maryam, belonged to the Aronite clan who was the cousin of Elizabeth who was also an Aronite. Also to anoint someone was a sacred anitiation to establish them to a particular high position.
Kai wrote:ur previous claim, was supposed to bring Christianity into trouble, since other religious figures promised immortality. Did Jesus do so? Yes! Does Islam? Yes! Do we have a problem then? Yes! Especially since you agree with the material you read since you have been through it in school.
No, not us, you do cause you dont believe G-D sent prophets to all nations of people, we do.
[10.47] And every nation had an Messenger; so when their Messenger came, the matter was decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly
[16.36] And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger saying: Serve Allah and shun the Shaitan. So there were some of them whom Allah guided and there were others against whom error was due; therefore travel in the land, then see what was the.end of the rejecters.
[16.63] By Allah, most certainly We sent (Messengers) to nations before you (Muhammad), but the Shaitan made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment.
[22.34] And to every nation We appointed acts of devotion that they may mention the name of Allah on what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds; so your God is One God, therefore to Him should you submit, and give good news to the humble,
[22.67] To every nation We appointed acts of devotion which they observe, therefore they should not dispute with you about the matter and call to your Lord; most surely you are on a right way.
[40.5] The people of Nuh and the parties after them rejected (prophets) before them, and every nation purposed against their Messengers to destroy him, and they disputed by means of the falsehood that they might thereby render null the truth, therefore I(Allah) destroyed them; how was then My retribution!
All Prophetic Messenger brought to their people the same deen ~ religious conviction.
Kai wrote:Concerning the women who actually raised up a dead man in the Bible, can you provide me with actual passage, that is of course if you are able to differentiate between spiritism and actual resurrection.
Sure no problem. Thought you would have known this.
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
I would have to correct my self, no she was not a witch but the handmaid of Saul.
Kai wrote:Well your tool of judgement is the Koran, was any other prophet or human being born by a virgin, other than Jesus.
Of course we are speaking about our beliefs vs yours so this would be Quran vs Bible. Neither the Quran or the Bible confirms and denies such a phenominon happed to only Maryam. However, there is numerous reports that such phenominon happened with other women before Christianity and Judaism, and then to consider how mankind also reproduce is questioned also in which we ellaborated on and gave the means of.
Kai wrote:What? You mean you have changed your view a third time?
First, the virgin birth, according to the list of pagan influence, and the archeological evidence supposed to reveal virgin birth, was taken in a negative sense, in other words pagan. And Christianity is pagan because it contains this particular similarity.
Pagan, is none Christian or not supported by Christian ideology. Those findings are solely based to the contrary of Christian dogma to which the critism is dependant on, whom also believe that G-D only sent prophets to Israel and not to all mankind. As me being a muslim, and our belief is that G-D sent Prophets to all nation, we cannot call something pagan until it contradicts the Quran depending on the issue. Our aspects are much more vast than that of the Christian aspects in this catagory.
Kai wrote:I asked you then (because Koran really does only ascribe virgin birth to Jesus Christ), if this does not present a problem, since in case of your sudden change of mind, all these previous religions would bring credit to Christianity and not Islam
Sudden change of mind in what? My consideration was in the past way before you came to this fourm was on the ascension of Jesus, not the miraculous birth. Your getting things mixed up here. I have no sudden change in mind on the issue of miraculous birth topic. I deliberately kept out another post to see what you would do and you did it alright. Now your trying to accuse me of suddenly changing my mind when this was something already discussed on this forum long before you came.
IF we take this chronologically to be exact as Cain and Abel were the two sons of Adam, making no mention of daughters, and then all of a sudden Cain has a wife, then it is reasoned that there had to be other people on earth before Adam in which Cain married one of their daughters which would contradict Adam being the father of mankind or the first man G-D created.
But however the above is the atheist views. Not the Christian, Jewish, or Islamic views.
The Christian, and Jewish views is that Cain's wife was his own sister (Lit.) in which G-D allowed (The sister and brother marriage) for a period of time for man to multiply then later prohibited in which the verses of Genensis are summerized in. Thus would give purpose for people to marry their Aunts and Uncles etc (as what we call incest today) before the Torah, in which it was allowed and was perfectly ok. (Note: Not all Christians agree to this though)
The Islamic view is divided on this. Some muslims hold the same views as Jews and Christians which are merely adopted in which the Quran and Hadith DO NOT SUPPORT.
The others believe that G-D in the begining multiplied men through the daughters, and grand daughters of Adam and his wife the same way he made it possible for Maryam to give birth to Jesus without a male father. Thus Cain's wife could of been also his cousin rather than his sister as marrying your cousin is not prohibited, and has ever since been a practice, whereas they lived prolonged ages to see 6-8 generations of their families and Kin. Also to add to this G-D sent prophets through out the world to every nation even before the Torah, in which the Jews were not the only nation to receive a Law.
I hold to the last view as I do not believe that Alllaah (G-D) ever allowed such thing of one marrying his sister etc. Of course we muslims look at the birth of Jesus as a miracle and a manifestation of Alllaah's power
in which He could have also done in the past and not just to Maryam alone. Why do I say this ? Cause there is numerous religions that existed before Christianity and Judaism that have simular beliefs of men being born just like that of Jesus.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 5103#35103
The comments above was made by me months ago when I first came to this forum, and
I am one othose who believe Maryam was not the only woman to bare a child without the intervention of a man.