Morning ya'll...
Gerani: Hi....
hinduism is both monothesit and polythesic. it is considered the oldest, though paganism in all cultures are probably the most oldest.
well actually the word i was told is henotheistic... belief in one of the gods while ignoring the rest... sorry i dont have a dictionary on hand...
BTW.. did the christians here know there is a concept of trinity in hunduism as well??? there is
1.Shiva
2.Vishnu
3.Bhrama
and these 3 form the one god called bhramam (note : the extra "m" at the end)
this is just an FYI ... no other reason...
Omega : hi... how's work???
You seem to have missed my point my friend, I mentioned...........
well... belief in the trinity in not an absolute requirement to be a christian... if it was then wouldnt all the unitarians be doomed to hell despite their acceptance of Jesus??? prior to the council of nicea circa 325 AD... there were 2 paths... the trinitarian and the unitarian... it was doe to this conflict that the 325 general assemble meeting was ordered by constantine... and despite the fact that arius put down / refuted all the trinitarian claims thru scrpiture constantine supported the trinitarian cause... donno if you are aware of this.... anyways... the point is wether Jesus was god or not is secondary... the main or rather the only clause to be a christian is to accept that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I assume all christians whatever be their denominations believe in this...
trinity cannot be explained. not by you not by the pope.. not by anybody.. you know there is a reason why its called the divine mystery... it is part of faith only... and when the defining criteria is faith only ... well then there can be no debate.. no questions... no answers... faith is unquestionable unanswerable... matters of the heart can never be defined. and this i completely understand. hence the phrase "To you yours and to me mine" ... as for the hardening of my heart... welll i wont agree completely... actually the word i would choose is conviction... i am convinced that this is not wholly right while that is . and this is not thru the heart... it is a matter of years of analysis and study and reflection... True there are no guarantees in Islam but thats the beauty of it. the uncertanity... the unknown.. which is the driving force ... the motivating force to push man to do good. Where as in Christianity there is nothing that motivates a man to do good to his fellow man. no one asks one to do good... its only said ... be good and good will automatically come out of you for others... well it does sound all hunky-dorry and nice and all that... but is this pratical? not really... the praticallity of such a statement is ... well ... there isnt any. human nature is such that he will not do much on his own for his fellow man.. well he may give some pocket change to the begger at the corner... and this will be the end of his genorisity... do you know why? because he has already been forgiven his transgressions thru the blood of Christ.... technically speaking he does not have to do anything... no one is asking him to do anything... everyone is relying on his own initiative to do good only because he would choose to... and invariably satan will tempt this re-born and invariably satan will succed in convincing this man not to share his good fortune.
Just think about it... you are told "peace dude... you are now saved. .. you will meet Jesus and God etc... " and then maybe in your euphoric mental state you might even hand out a couple of bucks or treat a misfortunate one to a 7 course meal... but satan will be there right behind you ... poking 24x7... "Dude... you worked hard day and night for that money... are you just gonna give it away to some bum who will eventually spend it on booze n hookers??? dont do it man.... keep the money... tomorrow you can donate it to the church" but when tomorrow comes so too comes the poking... "Dude.... you are going to give that money to the church??? didnt you always wanted to buy that playstation2???? when will come your time??? you are always helping out others... when is your time gonna come... no man.. take a stand... indulge yoursself" or "Dude... that 2 dollars wont help the church... you are better off giving it to some poor begger" and 99% of the time the person will give in. this is the practical life... this is what is happening...
hmm... once again ... off topic... *sigh*.... i need a smoke....
P.S The Devil and His demons are cursing me at this very moment by numbing my entire left arm and its fingers so as to make it extremely difficult to type and I am telling you the Truth!
This is the commentary for Gen 1:26-28 taken from Mathew Henrys books....
I. That man was made last of all the creatures, that it might not be suspected that he had been, any way, a helper to God in the creation of the world: that question must be for ever humbling and mortifying to him, Where wast thou, or any of thy kind, when I laid the foundations of the earth? Job xxxviii. 4. Yet it was both an honour and a favour to him that he was made last: an honour, for the method of the creation was to advance from that which was less perfect to that which was more so; and a favour, for it was not fit he should be lodged in the palace designed for him till it was completely fitted up and furnished for his reception. Man, as soon as he was made, had the whole visible creation before him, both to contemplate and to take the comfort of. Man was made the same day that the beasts were, because his body was made of the same earth with theirs; and, while he is in the body, he inhabits the same earth with them. God forbid that by indulging the body and the desires of it we should make ourselves like the beasts that perish!
II. That man's creation was a more signal and immediate act of divine wisdom and power than that of the other creatures. The narrative of it is introduced with something of solemnity, and a manifest distinction from the rest. Hitherto, it had been said, "Let there be light," and "Let there be a firmament," and "Let the earth, or waters, bring forth" such a thing; but now the word of command is turned into a word of consultation, "Let us make man, for whose sake the rest of the creatures were made: this is a work we must take into our own hands." In the former he speaks as one having authority, in this as one having affection; for his delights were with the sons of men, Prov. viii. 31. It should seem as if this were the work which he longed to be at; as if he had said, "Having at last settled the preliminaries, let us now apply ourselves to the business, Let us make man." Man was to be a creature different from all that had been hitherto made. Flesh and spirit, heaven and earth, must be put together in him, and he must be allied to both worlds. And therefore God himself not only undertakes to make him, but is pleased so to express himself as if he called a council to consider of the making of him: Let us make man. The three persons of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, consult about it and concur in it, because man, when he was made, was to be dedicated and devoted to Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Into that great name we are, with good reason, baptized, for to that great name we owe our being. Let him rule man who said, Let us make man.
III. That man was made in God's image and after his likeness, two words to express the same thing and making each other the more expressive; image and likeness denote the likest image, the nearest resemblance of any of the visible creatures. Man was not made in the likeness of any creature that went before him, but in the likeness of his Creator; yet still between God and man there is an infinite distance. Christ only is the express image of God's person, as the Son of his Father, having the same nature. It is only some of God's honour that is put upon man, who is God's image only as the shadow in the glass, or the king's impress upon the coin. God's image upon man consists in these three things:-- 1. In his nature and constitution, not those of his body (for God has not a body), but those of his soul. This honour indeed God has put upon the body of man, that the Word was made flesh, the Son of God was clothed with a body like ours and will shortly clothe ours with a glory like that of his. And this we may safely say, That he by whom God made the worlds, not only the great world, but man the little world, formed the human body, at the first, according to the platform he designed for himself in the fulness of time. But it is the soul, the great soul, of man, that does especially bear God's image. The soul is a spirit, an intelligent immortal spirit, an influencing active spirit, herein resembling God, the Father of Spirits, and the soul of the world. The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. The soul of man, considered in its three noble faculties, understanding, will, and active power, is perhaps the brightest clearest looking-glass in nature, wherein to see God. 2. In his place and authority: Let us make man in our image, and let him have dominion. As he has the government of the inferior creatures, he is, as it were, God's representative, or viceroy, upon earth; they are not capable of fearing and serving God, therefore God has appointed them to fear and serve man. Yet his government of himself by the freedom of his will has in it more of God's image than his government of the creatures. 3. In his purity and rectitude. God's image upon man consists in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, Eph. iv. 24; Col. iii. 10. He was upright, Eccl. vii. 29. He had an habitual conformity of all his natural powers to the whole will of God. His understanding saw divine things clearly and truly, and there were no errors nor mistakes in his knowledge. His will complied readily and universally with the will of God, without reluctancy or resistance. His affections were all regular, and he had no inordinate appetites or passions. His thoughts were easily brought and fixed to the best subjects, and there was no vanity nor ungovernableness in them. All the inferior powers were subject to the dictates and directions of the superior, without any mutiny or rebellion. Thus holy, thus happy, were our first parents, in having the image of God upon them. And this honour, put upon man at first, is a good reason why we should not speak ill one of another (Jam. iii. 9), nor do ill one to another (Gen. ix. 6), and a good reason why we should not debase ourselves to the service of sin, and why we should devote ourselves to God's service. But how art thou fallen, O son of the morning! How is this image of God upon man defaced! How small are the remains of it, and how great the ruins of it! The Lord renew it upon our souls by his sanctifying grace!
IV. That man was made male and female, and blessed with the blessing of fruitfulness and increase. God said, Let us make man, and immediately it follows, So God created man; he performed what he resolved. With us saying and doing are two things; but they are not so with God. He created him male and female, Adam and Eve--Adam first, out of earth, and Eve out of his side, ch. ii. It should seem that of the rest of the creatures God made many couples, but of man did not he make one? (Mal. ii. 15), though he had the residue of the Spirit, whence Christ gathers an argument against divorce, Matt. xix. 4, 5. Our first father, Adam, was confined to one wife; and, if he had put her away, there was no other for him to marry, which plainly intimated that the bond of marriage was not to be dissolved at pleasure. Angels were not made male and female, for they were not to propagate their kind (Luke xx. 34-36); but man was made so, that the nature might be propagated and the race continued. Fires and candles, the luminaries of this lower world, because they waste, and go out, have a power to light more; but it is not so with the lights of heaven: stars do not kindle stars. God made but one male and one female, that all the nations of men might know themselves to be made of one blood, descendants from one common stock, and might thereby be induced to love one another. God, having made them capable of transmitting the nature they had received, said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Here he gave them, 1. A large inheritance: Replenish the earth; it is this that is bestowed upon the children of men. They were made to dwell upon the face of all the earth, Acts xvii. 26. This is the place in which God has set man to be the servant of his providence in the government of the inferior creatures, and, as it were, the intelligence of this orb; to be the receiver of God's bounty, which other creatures live upon, but do not know it; to be likewise the collector of his praises in this lower world, and to pay them into the exchequer above (Ps. cxlv. 10); and, lastly, to be a probationer for a better state. 2. A numerous lasting family, to enjoy this inheritance, pronouncing a blessing upon them, in virtue of which their posterity should extend to the utmost corners of the earth and continue to the utmost period of time. Fruitfulness and increase depend upon the blessing of God: Obed-edom had eight sons, for God blessed him, 1 Chron. xxvi. 5. It is owing to this blessing, which God commanded at first, that the race of mankind is still in being, and that as one generation passeth away another cometh.
V. That God gave to man, when he had made him, a dominion over the inferior creatures, over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air. Though man provides for neither, he has power over both, much more over every living thing that moveth upon the earth, which are more under his care and within his reach. God designed hereby to put an honour upon man, that he might find himself the more strongly obliged to bring honour to his Maker. This dominion is very much diminished and lost by the fall; yet God's providence continues so much of it to the children of men as is necessary to the safety and support of their lives, and God's grace has given to the saints a new and better title to the creature than that which was forfeited by sin; for all is ours if we are Christ's, 1 Cor. iii. 22.
Although it has no bearing to the topic on hand... i just wanted to share this... a nice explanation of things...
Through the Blood of Christ man is reconciled to God and has Christ in their hearts
but just those men who have accepted Christ only...
John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I do understand this verse... but i doubt the meaning i get will be the same as what you get... i understand this verse and other such "Are ONE" verses to be on a different plain of existance... a mystical meaning.. an abstract meaning.. a spiritual meaning.. a metaphorical meaning... but definately not a physical meaning. (BTW physical is not the same physical as what you and i understand... eg.. a soul is one physical non-solid entity... )
that they may be one , even as we are one... in a metaphorical sense... this is my understanding..
Did you know that Jesus always spoke in mystical words.. parables.. stories with inner meanings... would you agree that such words have different meanings for different earth bound humans. eg.. Moses never spoke in a mystical way... all his words were clear cut... to the point .. and precise... no chance of dilly-dallying anywhere... no chance of misinterpretation... I mean how much more explanation is needed to understand "Thou shall not covet thy neighbours wife" ... however OTOH.. Jesus never actually gave a clear cut answer to any question... no straight to the point precise answers... all his answers were .... vague ... subject to interpretation... hence the diversification of the church very early in time... mainly due to doctrinal reasons... different people understood differently... its like the TOmato toMAto phrase...and the deciding factor here is faith... just faith. nothing else. "Coz I said so" . no other explanation... i mean c'mon it took 300 odd years to decide between the unitarians and the trinitarians. and both of them have the same book.. same words... same God.. same Jesus etc... but totally different explanations ... TOmato-toMAto.
"The lion shall eat straw like the bullock" Do you understand what its implying here? The Lion will Also eat Straw Like the Bullock and likewise shall all the Children of God be fed Hidden Manna and Living Water, do you understand this my friend?
There will be total harmony... no strife.. no pain.. no nothing. its called bliss.. eternal bliss.
Do you see the UNITY here my friend? So God is represented in Absolute Unity in three Eternal Persons and from the very beginning was His purpose that All of His Creation were to be made in His image .....................................................
Does any of this make sense to you my friend? Either it does or it doesn't to you, why? Because I have explained using the method of harmonial understanding by the Spirit but will not be understood by the Natural man.
yes i understand the divine purpose, the creation, etc... its just the truine aspect i cant get over. you eternal and then you say 3. 3 eternals, 3 absolutes, 3 infinites... sorry... i dot get it... maybe its as you said... my heart is hardened to this "fact" but as i said earlier... belief in trinity is not a deciding / core requirement to be a christian.
God said that He is one many times in the OLD TESTAMENT and NEVER mentioned the Triune Formula anywhere because it is to be understood by the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit which is the one that reveals the Truth of Spiritual Understanding. The Saints knew but many did not because Christ had not yet been sacrificed and therefore did not make His ABODE in their hearts as of yet so they may understand the True Meaning of ONENESS! If you cannot understand any of this then your ears are dull of hearing and your heart lacks understanding, I say this to you as a friend
correct. not once is there any mention of a truine nature to God. however only after Jesus "died" did the truine nature of God come out. dont you feel a bit suspicious??? i mean all along Jesus mentioned maximum 2. Himself and God... and even then he never called himself a divine being. but as a lower status person to the Divine Being. Lower than his own disciples... his followers... Yet after his "death" he is automatically upgraded to divine status along with the comforter which as far as my biblical knowledge goes never got equated with divinity in a godly sense. If only Jesus had said something clear cut indicating a 3=1 equation ............. i think there would have not been any confusion.... at all. You know ... sometimes i wonder... at one place God says He is not a god of confusion... yet His own nature according to christianity is of confusing nature. dont you feel even the least bit suspicious??
So who then is responsible for this? God? If we take the Mayans for example their .....................................................
Fact is the americas didnt exist for the european/african/asian people. until columbus. fact is preachers didnt reach the shores of america until columbus. fact is a person is doomed to eternal hell if he/she doesnt accept Jesus. As for the question of responsibility bit... no.. God is not responsible. Since my defination of God includes total justice... these people are not doomed... even tho they are misguided... they do have a fighting chance. my belief is prophets have been sent to all corners of the earth. the divine message has been proclaimed to all. if anyone today says he was ignorant of the message... he lies. ... maybe before the days of mass communications and telephones etc... it was different. judgment would be based on different criteria... than what it is today. my personal belief is everyone has a fighting chance of getting thru the gates. well maybe except the atheists. but every theist (hindu,muslim,christian,buddhist,jew,etc) they all have a chance. if they didnt then it will be unjust of God's part.
this whole mayan and inca business is not even remotely related to the main topic... i know ... i brought it up.... sometimes i get carried away... what do you say??? lets put this in a thread of its own? because at this moment the whole thing is completely unrelated to the topic... viz. "the false prophet...."
Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You failed to realize my point and did not answer my question but responded with an answer. What about the Christians before the Quran made its debut? Answer this and don't try and avoid it, so they are condemned to hellfire be allah because they knew not that the Bible would be corrupted? NONSENSE! NO SENSE!
Omega... this is the exact same explanation i have been given to my claims of biblical corruption. as for the believing christians of pre-Quranic era... well... the word believing answers it. they were believing. they were true God-fearing people...
check this out
Sura 18 : The Cave
018.009
YUSUFALI: Or dost thou reflect that the Companions of the Cave and of the Inscription were wonders among Our Sign?
PICKTHAL: Or deemest thou that the People of the Cave and the Inscription are a wonder among Our portents?
SHAKIR: Or, do you think that the Fellows of the Cave and the Inscription were of Our wonderful signs?
018.010
YUSUFALI: Behold, the youths betook themselves to the Cave: they said, "Our Lord! bestow on us Mercy from Thyself, and dispose of our affair for us in the right way!"
PICKTHAL: When the young men fled for refuge to the Cave and said: Our Lord! Give us mercy from Thy presence, and shape for us right conduct in our plight.
SHAKIR: When the youths sought refuge in the cave, they said: Our Lord! grant us mercy from Thee, and provide for us a right course in our affair.
018.011
YUSUFALI: Then We draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of years, in the Cave, (so that they heard not):
PICKTHAL: Then We sealed up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.
SHAKIR: So We prevented them from hearing in the cave for a number of years.
018.012
YUSUFALI: Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried!
PICKTHAL: And afterward We raised them up that We might know which of the two parties would best calculate the time that they had tarried.
SHAKIR: Then We raised them up that We might know which of the two parties was best able to compute the time for which they remained.
018.013
YUSUFALI: We relate to thee their story in truth: they were youths who believed in their Lord, and We advanced them in guidance:
PICKTHAL: We narrate unto thee their story with truth. Lo! they were young men who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance.
SHAKIR: We relate to you their story with the truth; surely they were youths who believed in their Lord and We increased them in guidance.
018.014
YUSUFALI: We gave strength to their hearts: Behold, they stood up and said: "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth: never shall we call upon any god other than Him: if we did, we should indeed have uttered an enormity!
PICKTHAL: And We made firm their hearts when they stood forth and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. We cry unto no Allah beside Him, for then should we utter an enormity.
SHAKIR: And We strengthened their hearts with patience, when they stood up and said: Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth; we will by no means call upon any god besides Him, for then indeed we should have said an extravagant thing.
018.015
YUSUFALI: "These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him: why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah?
PICKTHAL: These, our people, have chosen (other) gods beside Him though they bring no clear warrant (vouchsafed) to them. And who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah?
SHAKIR: These our people have taken gods besides Him; why do they not produce any clear authority in their support? Who is then more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah?
018.016
YUSUFALI: "When ye turn away from them and the things they worship other than Allah, betake yourselves to the Cave: Your Lord will shower His mercies on you and disposes of your affair towards comfort and ease."
PICKTHAL: And when ye withdraw from them and that which they worship except Allah, then seek refuge in the Cave; your Lord will spread for you of His mercy and will prepare for you a pillow in your plight.
SHAKIR: And when you forsake them and what they worship save Allah, betake yourselves for refuge to the cave; your Lord will extend to you largely of His mercy and provide for you a profitable course in your affair.
018.017
YUSUFALI: Thou wouldst have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the Cave. Such are among the Signs of Allah: He whom Allah, guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray,- for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the Right Way.
PICKTHAL: And thou mightest have seen the sun when it rose move away from their cave to the right, and when it set go past them on the left, and they were in the cleft thereof. That was (one) of the portents of Allah. He whom Allah guideth, he indeed is led aright, and he whom He sendeth astray, for him thou wilt not find a guiding friend.
SHAKIR: And you might see the sun when it rose, decline from their cave towards the right hand, and when it set, leave them behind on the left while they were in a wide space thereof. This is of the signs of Allah; whomsoever Allah guides, he is the rightly guided one, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him any friend to lead (him) aright.
018.018
YUSUFALI: Thou wouldst have deemed them awake, whilst they were asleep, and We turned them on their right and on their left sides: their dog stretching forth his two fore-legs on the threshold: if thou hadst come up on to them, thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight, and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them.
PICKTHAL: And thou wouldst have deemed them waking though they were asleep, and We caused them to turn over to the right and the left, and their dog stretching out his paws on the threshold. If thou hadst observed them closely thou hadst assuredly turned away from them in flight, and hadst been filled with awe of them.
SHAKIR: And you might think them awake while they were asleep and We turned them about to the right and to the left, while their dog (lay) outstretching its paws at the entrance; if you looked at them you would certainly turn back from them in flight, and you would certainly be filled with awe because of them.
018.019
YUSUFALI: Such (being their state), we raised them up (from sleep), that they might question each other. Said one of them, "How long have ye stayed (here)?" They said, "We have stayed (perhaps) a day, or part of a day." (At length) they (all) said, "Allah (alone) knows best how long ye have stayed here.... Now send ye then one of you with this money of yours to the town: let him find out which is the best food (to be had) and bring some to you, that (ye may) satisfy your hunger therewith: And let him behave with care and courtesy, and let him not inform any one about you.
PICKTHAL: And in like manner We awakened them that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said: How long have ye tarried? They said: We have tarried a day or some part of a day, (Others) said: Your Lord best knoweth what ye have tarried. Now send one of you with this your silver coin unto the city, and let him see what food is purest there and bring you a supply thereof. Let him be courteous and let no man know of you.
SHAKIR: And thus did We rouse them that they might question each other. A speaker among them said: How long have you tarried? They said: We have tarried for a day or a part of a day. (Others) said: Your Lord knows best how long you have tarried. Now send one of you with this silver (coin) of yours to the city, then let him see which of them has purest food, so let him bring you provision from it, and let him behave with gentleness, and by no means make your case known to any one:
018.020
YUSUFALI: "For if they should come upon you, they would stone you or force you to return to their cult, and in that case ye would never attain prosperity."
PICKTHAL: For they, if they should come to know of you, will stone you or turn you back to their religion; then ye will never prosper.
SHAKIR: For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.
018.021
YUSUFALI: Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."
PICKTHAL: And in like manner We disclosed them (to the people of the city) that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that, as for the Hour, there is no doubt concerning it. When (the people of the city) disputed of their case among themselves, they said: Build over them a building; their Lord knoweth best concerning them. Those who won their point said: We verily shall build a place of worship over them.
SHAKIR: And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them.
018.022
YUSUFALI: (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth,- doubtfully guessing at the unknown; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say thou: "My Lord knoweth best their number; It is but few that know their (real case)." Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers.
PICKTHAL: (Some) will say: They were three, their dog the fourth, and (some) say: Five, their dog the sixth, guessing at random; and (some) say: Seven, and their dog the eighth. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord is Best Aware of their number. None knoweth them save a few. So contend not concerning them except with an outward contending, and ask not any of them to pronounce concerning them.
SHAKIR: (Some) say: (They are) three, the fourth of them being their dog; and (others) say: Five, the sixth of them being their dog, making conjectures at what is unknown; and (others yet) say: Seven, and the eighth of them is their dog. Say: My Lord best knows their number, none knows them but a few; therefore contend not in the matter of them but with an outward contention, and do not question concerning them any of them.
018.023
YUSUFALI: Nor say of anything, "I shall be sure to do so and so tomorrow"-
PICKTHAL: And say not of anything: Lo! I shall do that tomorrow,
SHAKIR: And do not say of anything: Surely I will do it tomorrow,
018.024
YUSUFALI: Without adding, "So please Allah!" and call thy Lord to mind when thou forgettest, and say, "I hope that my Lord will guide me ever closer (even) than this to the right road."
PICKTHAL: Except if Allah will. And remember thy Lord when thou forgettest, and say: It may be that my Lord guideth me unto a nearer way of truth than this.
SHAKIR: Unless Allah pleases; and remember your Lord when you forget and say: Maybe my Lord will guide me to a nearer course to the right than this.
018.025
YUSUFALI: So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more)
PICKTHAL: And (it is said) they tarried in their Cave three hundred years and add nine.
SHAKIR: And they remained in their cave three hundred years and (some) add (another) nine.
018.026
YUSUFALI: Say: "Allah knows best how long they stayed: with Him is (the knowledge of) the secrets of the heavens and the earth: how clearly He sees, how finely He hears (everything)! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever.
PICKTHAL: Say: Allah is Best Aware how long they tarried. His is the Invisible of the heavens and the earth. How clear of sight is He and keen of hearing! They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government.
SHAKIR: Say: Allah knows best how long they remained; to Him are (known) the unseen things of the heavens and the earth; how clear His sight and how clear His hearing! There is none to be a guardian for them besides Him, and He does not make any one His associate in His Judgment.
Commentary:
"In order to test the Holy Prophet the pagans of Makka sent three men to Najran so that they might learn a few unknown episodes from the Jew scholars and confront him with them. They returned with the story of the "seven sleepers in the cave", and when the Holy Prophet was asked to narrate their story these verses were revealed ."
The Quran, as usual, lays stress on the moral lessons of the story, and not on the exact identification of the persons concerned. The Holy Prophet not only told them the main story but pointed out the variations that were current, and admonished them for disputing about such details. The story is treated as a parable, containing spiritual lessons of the highest value. The ashab ul kahf (the dwellers of the cave) were seven young Christian men who lived in Ephesus, a city on the west coast of Asia Minor. They lived in a society which was completely idolatrous, although they themselves were believers in only one God, as the true followers of Prophet Isa. The city in which they lived was under the rule of the Roman emperor Decius who ruled from 249 to 251 A.D. Decius was a tyrant, and an idol-worshipper. All those who lived under his rule were forced to worship the idols. He issued an order saying that any citizen who refused to worship the idols was a traitor and was condemned to death. Soon the seven young men-the ashab ul kahf-realised that they were the only persons left who refrained from worshipping the idols. This forced them to re-evaluate their situation: either give in to the majority pressure to worship idols, or refuse and be killed. None of these alternatives seemed favourable. Man must not jeopardise his life but should take all precautions to save it because it is a trust, and then leave the matter to the will of Allah. Therefore, they decided to leave the city and seek refuge elsewhere, away from the reach of the tyrant emperor. So they left the city. Outside the city, a dog named Qatmir joined them. They went towards the hills and finally found a cave for themselves. They prayed for Allah's help, and Allah made them sleep for about 300 years. A party of investigators, headed by a minister of the emperor came to the cave. The minister, who went inside the cave and found them sleeping, was a believer, so he told the emperor that they were dead. The cave was closed and a tablet (raqim) whereon were inscribed the names of the ashab ul kahf, their religion, and what it was from which they fled was put upon the entrance of the cave. The cave is said to be in Damascus. Even today the pilgrims who call upon the shrine of Bibi Zaynab, pay a visit to this cave.
They were raised up in the reign of Theodosius 11 (408 to 450 A.D.), who was a Christian. It is written in Hastings "Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics" that the cave was reopened when Allah suggested to Adolius, the proprietor of the field where the cave is, to build a sheepfold for his flock; for this purpose the workmen used the stones which closed the entrance of the cave. The long period of 300 years seemed to the ashab ul kahf, as if only a day or two passed by, or even less. So our ideas of time are fallacious. The Almighty Lord controls time and space. Even an animal who associated itself with the godly servants of Allah was rewarded. This event is an example of Allah's power to resurrect all human beings after their death on the day of judgement.
There is another version in which it is stated that when the ashab ul kahf came out of sleep they found the mouth of the cave closed.
One of them said: "O my Lord, once I hired a man to work for me for one full day, but he finished the work in half a day and left without taking the payment. With the amount payable to him I bought a calf. Soon it multiplied into a herd. It so happened that one day he came to see me. I told him what had happened. He did not believe. I swore in Your name and gave the whole flock to him. I did it in Your name and for Your sake. Please open the cave."
One third portion of the cave opened. Another from them said: "O my Lord, a beautiful woman came to me for some food when there was a widespread famine in our land. I desired her very much as soon as I saw her beauty but she refused to yield to my carnal passion and went away. She came to me again and again but every time I put the same proposal to her. At last she agreed. When I held her in my arms I felt she was violently trembling. To my question she said she was trembling in fear of God. I at once freed her and gave her the provision she asked for. I did it to obtain Your pleasure. I wept and sought Your forgiveness. Now I beseech You to open the cave."
Now the two third portion of the cave was open. Another from them said: "O my Lord, once I brought some milk for my parents, but found them asleep. I did not want to disturb them. So I waited beside them. The whole night passed and my flock of sheep perished in the field as I could not attend to them. In the morning my parents awoke and drank the milk. I did it to please You, O my l.ord; so open the cave."
Now the whole cave lay open before them. Whatever is stated about the ashab ul kahf is a miracle of Allah. He is able to do all things. No one has yet found the bodies of ashab ul kahf who are said to be still sleeping. Allah has kept them invisible as He has kept Isa, Khizr, Idris and the living Imam Al Qa-im hidden from the sight of all people.
there is no doubt that there are believing people even among the unbelievers... or atleast there is a possibility... eg. story of Abrahams "bargaining" for sodom and gomorrah....
Everyone is judged based on that person only... no one can pay someone elses price... If the person is a muslim... he will be judged according to islamic laws... if a christian who never heard of islam or its details etc... will be judged based on the original christian laws and how he led his life.. same for the jews the hindus etc... but the worst punishment will be for the muslim who despite knowing the truth denied it. no one gets it any worse than this....
if you are interested would you like to read some stuff on the hereafter and judgment day etc??? very interesting book ... altho it is scary jus like revelations....
Allah will forgive them?
Yes and no. it all depends. If He so wishes He will...else He wont... bottom line it all depends on the person. meaning works/deeds... My friend just by going around saying "I worship you God, I worship you God, I worship you God" doesnt make the person pass thru the gates... God will ask..."fine you worshiped Me... but what have you done for your fellow man???? You worshiped Me so I made you very rich... but what have you done for your people???"
So the lust and pride of life did not exist for them, that is what you said isn't it?
Tell me this... mere seconds before Eve decided to eat the fruit... just before the serpent slithered towards her... was she sinless? even if she existed for just a few hours... and what about Adam??? was he sinless? was he perfect? After all didnt you say Adam was created in the image of God??? in any case... when was the very first time they sinned?? Eve?? when did she commit her first sin? was it just before she touched and broke off the fruit from the tree? or after she ate it? My understanding... she commited her first sin not when she ate the fruit. but when she streched out her hand for that apple. gaining knowledge from the apple was just a consequence... this was not the sin. the sin was disobeying a direct order from God. God said dont approach the tree. She did. Sin 1. However the events that follow this... i dont agree with... i.ee she taking the apple and telling Adam to eat it etc... you and your wife are the only humans on earth. you are just created. what are the possibilities that you will let your wife roam around alone unaccompanied???? zip. I believe Adam and Eve were together when the fruit thingie happened.
So... mere seconds before they reachout to touch the fruit... were they sin free? sin less??? Plz dont say they had the potential to sin so they still are sinners before and after.... because you need to remember that they were just created maybe hours ago or days ago... that is immaterial... but they were just made... by whom? God. The Perfect. The Absolute. etc...
So either God made them imperfect intentionally or (God forgive me) He didnt know how to do His job. Which one is it???
Another question : You said that God is all pure and all holy etc... tell me... who created satan? or did satan always exist? i.e. eternal??? how was satan able to attempt the take over of God's throne as you put it?
You then say that where did Evil come from? Are you telling me that God Created Evil? God is Absolutely Pure and does not Create Evil and do not be led by misunderstanding of Scripture that He does. Ask yourself this, Did God create false religions?
Dude... you need to come out a bit ... try to get a wider angle of the picture... you are limiting yourself... this is the way i see it
Good and Evil and its origin.
Everything is created by God. Good and evil. everything. no exceptions. you and i cannot create. we can convert, discover, etc... but never create. create is when something comes from nothing and it is done voluntarily. the closest we come to creation is the thought process... people say we create thought. but if you study some neurology you will see that the actual electrical impulese in the brain etc happen even before we think. the signals happen and then we think. meaning even these thoughts source are involuntary causes resulting in the thought effect... i know this is kinda difficult to understand... but ......
So.... God is perfect. Obviously He will create a perfect world... right? now.. in a perfect world will the creation have free will?? ofcourse... coz if the creation had no free will then it really wouldnt be perfect.. it would be more like a dictatorship... wouldnt you say so?? But if a choice is there then wouldnt there be a good choice and a bad choice??? think about it. First of all... how do you define good and evil??? eg Adam and Eve... was the eating of the fruit evil or was it the reaching out and thus breaking the first law made? God said dont do it. She chose to do it. and then she did it. so will she be punished for chosing to do it or for doing it??? remember.. the rule is dont do it. but to do it you first need to choose. yes or no. do it or dont do it. to do or not to do .... that is the question. ( I love shakespere) So the choice was the sin... and the action ie doing it was the ending or completion of that sin. the final confirmation...
so... if God created all the world and choice... then He also created good and evil. satan chose to be evil. Eve chose to eat the fruit. blah blah blah. and when the act is actually completed thats when the sin is completed and confirmed and counted as a negative point in ones book of deeds.
God didnt create false religions. you and i peverted His original message. we chose to do it. man changed it. but man is not alone in this. satan is forever poking / whispering to do it. satan as you know is mans sworn enemy. and he will forever tempt man. if man wishes to remain good he will need to not listen to satan. its all a matter of choice.
Have you ever read any article on Divine destiny v/s freedom of choice debates??? try some... makes some real interesting thought provoking reading.
Yes,....... ..Yes I do! and this is what the Scriptures say my friend
roverbs 26:11 - As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Furthermore your reliance upon the foolish philosophies and adages of man is the Cork in your heart and as of now your heart is not far from being permanently hardened!
Yes you are right. my heart is hardened to a point of no return. statements such as yours and our other christian and non-christian brothers have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that i am on the right path. interestingly have you ever considered that thought that the very same above quote can be applied to you as well?? You too have been hardened in heart to Islam by the demons who non-stop put responses in your head to my posts...
btw:
Let me let you in on another cunning method the demons use:When you respond to my post the Demons put the responses in your head, don't believe me?
This has got to be the funniest statement i ever heard.. no hard feeling dude... its just that you are soo cocooned in your beliefs that the mere possibility of anything better or the self being wrong can exist is absurd to you. I was a christian. now i am not.
hmmm......Do you see the Power of demons now???
anyways ... lets just get back on track... could you plz provide any christian reference where satan squeezes people ...
Thanks...
PS... no offence dude... if i have said anything which might have offended you , i apologize...
Peace
Ali