Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe False Prophet:The Author of the Quran!Hi Omega.... True... this is a normal approach of people... but you dont know me. the reason i asked was coz this was new info for me... something quite sensational .... just interested in knowing where you heard it... maybe if i too can get a copy of this source... i could then cross ref it with other things and see if things fall in place... i am willing to take critizism... if anyone here can bring up any negative points about Islam or the Prophet or God or whatever... i am open.. No my friend... the reason i dont get trinity is because i am a rational person. logic, brain power, knowledge, insight, etc.... all these are things i use to understand ... unfortunately trinity doesnt fit in any of the above functions.... bottom line explanation for the trinity is "because i said so" or because the Bible says so or because the early fathers said so.... There is no logical explanation. it is only a matter of faith. nothing else. faith is the only thing that allows trinity to still exist. if the entire world were to be replaced with rational logical scientific persons who have no place for blind faith, trinity will cease to exist. No person dead or alive till now has been able to explain it. thats why it is called the "Mystery" .... there is a reason why the word mystery is used for the trinity... if the 3=1 equation was solvable then no man would ever use the word trinity and mystery in the same breath.... ever. I appreciate your effort in explaining this to me earlier... but ... waht can i say.... i am a rational person. scientific if you wish... i cant help it. thats the way i have always been ... the earliest i can remember is when i was about 10-11 yrs old.. thats when i started questioning these things... now i am 32. well you know what they say about the old dog and new tricks.... First of all... from what i remember during my history classes... till the time of columbus... the general idea of the civilized world (christian-europe) was that the earth was flat. i think it was magallen who first said the world was round... in any case... atleast 1000 or 1500 yrs had passed since the sacrifice of Jesus... for the sins of man. so the possibility of Jesus' disciples or their disciples or the disciples disciples disciples (10 generations if you wish) ... none ventured into the atlantic ocean... for fear of falling off the edge of the earth. now... plz follow my direction.... the prerequisite for entering heaven was and is only and ONLY thru Jesus.... right? anyone... and i mean any one who does not go thru Jesus is doomed in hell for ever... because first of all they carry the curse of the original sin. hence they all are sinners... and the price of these sins cannot be paid thru deeds/works... even animal sacrifices are a temporary stay order to the final execution of sentence... do you follow me?? now you said... so these native americans/ mayans/incas etc... never knew Jesus (atleast from a historical documented point of view) The mere fact that there is no documentation that any disciple went towards the americas and that the earth was flat was the absolute belief until or just before columbus clearly says that these native american etc had no chance of hearing of Jesus. but now that you have quoted Lk 12... well... this paints a totally different picture... people will be allowed thru the pearly gates even if they didnt know Jesus.... eg the incas... if these people can waltz thru the gates ... then whats teh whole point of this eternal sacrifice??? Do you still follow me??? plz look at all this from a rational non-prejudiced person... just assume you are not a christian for a few moments... and try to picture what i am saying. If as said in Lk 12 people can get off the hook even if they dont know Jesus... then why have a sacrifice in the first place? i am not talking about the people who died and went before the comming of Jesus... only of the ones after him.... Just try to picture this.... 1 Priest/bible/Jesus(well its paul actually... but i wont go into much details) says ... only and only way to heaven is thru Jesus. 2. there are people existing even today who never heard of Jesus who die... and Lk 12 lets these un-knowledgable primitive jungle people off with a slight slap on the wrist. 3. If this is the case... why the sacrifice??????????? Fine ... i might accept the mystery part of trinity... it cant be explained... trinity is not a major player in the daily lives of man... but without the sacrifice ... the eternal divine absolute sacrifice of God's one and only begotten eternal son... isnt it a waste? Do you remember the story of Abraham when he was kinda bargaining with God to save sodom and gomorrah... He started with 50 righteous people.. and God said He wont destroy the place if there are 50 good men... all the way down to 5 good men... so this incident shows that God will not implement anything even if there is a single exception.... even if there is a possibility that there might be even 1 person in the entire history of life who might not have heard of Jesus ever... He wont implement anything that will be unjust to that lone man. plz read it and try to understand where i am comming form.... When i was having some discussions with some christians ... they alwasys said " the Bible was written by actual witnesses... if there had been any discrepencies in the content or there were any distorted facts... wouldnt the other witnesses speakout against it??? Hence the Bible is un-corrupted" well my friend... i use this same logic here. The oldest copy existing today is a few years after the Prophets death. now ... if there were any corruptions/additions/deletions etc in it... wouldnt the entire muslim community rise up and revolt??? against the corrupting man??? not only that... considering the hatered christians and jews had for muslims and Islam as a whole... wouldnt they have at least capitalized on this idea then??? wouldnt they have documented such incidents??? do you find any such references???? True ... i have read certain hadiths which indicate that the Quran is incomplete... i.e. it is lesser than the original... but i have yet to read anywhere a hadith that says the Quran is more than the original (i.e. additions) in any case these hadiths have been discounted as fabrications by experts... which means these are all unreliable texts/hadiths... In any case ... i am a Shia Muslim... and i do not give as much importance to these sunni hadiths for the sole reason that most of these text ar absurd... it makes no sense... Just because some mullah says they are true but funny or absurd but still none the less true doesnt make it so... God isnt a God of confusion... holds true for us as much as for you. As for the part about God allowing corruption ... well He did allow satan to misguide. If He can do that... why not this? as far as i know... there is no verse in the Bible that says teh Bible will be protected from corruption by God. He never said it. if He didnt say it... well it means he is allowing the corruption. whereas in the Quran ... it is clearly stated the He will guarantee that the book will remain the same. and it has... at least from a historical non-religion unbiased 3rd person view... the oldest is a few years after Prophet Muhammeds death. first of all... in a perfect world (garden of eden if you wish) will there exist freedom to choose either goodor bad? yes. because without a choice.. that world will not be perfect. 2nd who created the garden? God. and the tree of knowledge? God. who gave satan permission / ability to slither onto the tree? God. who created free will and choice? God. now good and evil is a part of all this. so would you say God created evil? Now you are sayig that the devil by showing Eve and Adam the truth he was doing wrong? sorry my friend... its not like that. Satan was decieving them not advising them. these 2 people didnt know what is the meaning of lies, deception, cheating, etc... so if you went up to them and said 3=1... they would have accepted it too... because they do not know what a lie is... they will not know what truth is also. hence they will accept it. Satan wasnt showing them the truth... he was just deciving them. lying to them.... Truth is not good. neither is it bad... it is truth. a fact. there is no question about a fact. and a fact is a fact... it is neitehr goodnor bad. it is period Adam and Eve knew no lust of the flesh or pride of life.. such concepts didnt exist for them. Is God such a bad/weak creator that He made a man who is imperfect????? No. man is perfect in every sense. the evil you talk of... that is not imperfection... that is a consequence of the choice man makes. evil is only a consequence a by product an end result an effect. it is not imperfection. if it is then.... All those mayans ans incas and red indians etc are and will burn in hell for eternity just because they didnt know and accept Jesus... whose message btw didnt reach them...the disciples didnt go to proclaim the message to them... atleast until columbus... or atleast 1500 yrs after Jesus. I have been told that the KJV 1611 is the absolute infallable word of God. by christians might i add. Modern day translations as you put it have made corrections to the KJV... i will try to find this article and post later... Peace Ali |
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