Liberate wrote:May be his Lord, if he divorces you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgin." sura 66:5
transliteration: AAasa rabbuhu in tallaqakunna an yubdilahu azwajan khayran minkunna muslimatin mu/minatin qanitatin ta-ibatin AAabidatin sa-ihatin thayyibatin waabkaran
arabic :
ุนูุณูู ุฑูุจููู ุฅููู ุทููููููููููู ุฃููู ููุจูุฏููููู ุฃูุฒูููุฌูุง ุฎูููุฑูุง ู
ูููููููู ู
ูุณูููู
ูุชู ู
ูุคูู
ูููุชู ููููุชูุชู ุชูุฆูุจูุชู ุนูุจูุฏูุชู ุณูุฆูุญูุงุชู ุซููููุจูุชู ููุฃูุจูููุงุฑูุง
and knowing what you like to do with translations, this is what the neutral online translation says using the rules of arabic : "His Lord might... "
Neutral ? Who determined such a thing ? I think you are giving your online bot translator by CIMOS the authority of something that it doesnt have or even claimed. Did you ever read the instruction manual about its
realiability ?
It is an automated translation software
conceived to help translators but
not to replace them. It is capable of providing quickly the
rough draft of an understandable and acceptable translation. MLTS produces a high quality draft translation at rate of about 100,000 words per hour.
The translator can then proceed to the
proof-reading phase and
adapt the translated text to the target environment. MLTS uses a semantic analyser and an universal grammer. Translation Memory capabilities are also included in MLTS
http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=traduction
Your use of this online tool is of no validation being that your not an Arabic Translator cause you dont know Arabic nor speak it nor understand its grammar etc.
Also, it is not a neutral translation due to the fact it is only a
rough draft not some thing official or absolute which is still in need and subject to Human translator aid for modification and fixation to its proper adaptability.
Liberate wrote:Have a look at the above sura and tell me why allah would refer to himself as "his lord?" Was allah only the lord of Mohammed or was he the lord of all the muslims? Why would allah refer to himself in the third person?
"his Lord" This is a personal rather than an impersonal relationship in the matter being spoken of. Through out the Quran Allah speaks of himself in the third person which is nothing rare, thus "his Lord, their Lord, her Lord" is habitually used and not just applied to Muhammad but to various people in the Quran.
Since you believe Jesus is G-D and when he was speaking about "the Father" in the third person was he not according to Christianity refering to himself in the third person who is also the Father ie G-D ?
This shouldnt be anything new to you when Jesus speaks of himself in the third person at many times, So why get all bizzaro when you see that the speaker who is Allah speaking of himself in the third person ?
So therefor the lanuguage usage should not even be a discussion which is mereless your own wanton scrutiny:
Say: "O ye People of the Book! why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do." 3:99
Now lets continue wiht what else you said:
Liberate wrote:And why utilise the uncertainty of "May be?" It is an insult to believe that God would utter such a thing. Why would God use the phrase "May be?"
We go back to the Arabic and this is what is found:
'asaa (perhaps/maybe) rabbu (Lord) hu (his) in (if) Tallaqa (he devorced) kunna (you all)
an (
that) yubdila (He will replace) hu (him) azwaajan (spouses) khairan (better) min (than) kunna (you all).....
"Perhaps his Lord, if he devorced you all,
that He will replace for him spouses better than you....."
or
"Perhaps
that his Lord will replace for him spouses better than you all if he devorced you...."
'asaa" ~
Perhaps or It maybe is followed by "
an" ~
that as a conjuction introducing an
achievable action ie. indicating an expected event.
The Arabic word "'asaa" denotes hope in the case of that which is liked or disliked as an
opinion or
doubt or
certainty (Ref. Edward Lane Arabic Lexicon)
In english it denotes doubt, in Arabic it can be any of the three denotations in bold above.
In the context it denotes "certainty" and not "doubt" cause it is aided by "an" ~
that indicating the achievable event which in Arabic is "mansoob".
The Arabic of the Quran indicates if Muhammad desired to devorce his wives, in which he had the choice to do, due to the current circumstances for which his wives were being admonished for, Allah
would have replaced them with better wives for him.
QuoteH2O wrote)
In shorter words. You have to approach the Quran first as to how it was revealed
Liberate wrote:
What do you mean here, how it was revealed was a series of
epileptic fits never witnessed in any prophet in the 3,000 + yrs span of judaism and christianity, however
demon possession, and
occultic phenomena regularly witness such behaviour as ringing bells, heart palpitations, sweating on cold days e.t.c.
Your response to that statement is exactly how most Christians view the Quran, in a prejudice and unbiased view as what you have just expressed being remote from a scientific approach.
I already consulted with you on this epileptic rampage issue of yours from before which you didnt address, but I see you added something new of being demon possessed above:
Quote:
To remind you Tabari's collection of Hadith are not ruled as Sahih. Also in the religon of ISLAM Hadiths are not inspired nor are they the WORDS OF ALLAH, they do not supersede the Quran in Islam.
But they explain a great deal about islam, they explain the verses and the give body to the whole religion without those hadiths you have 114 epileptic utterances you call suras with no chronological basis.
"114 epilptic utterances" ? Hmm lets see. The reports said whenever Muhammad received the revelation of the Quran it was always in public, he would fall down shaking in cold feverish sweat even in cold weather where they had to cover him up in blankets.
Also his weight would increase more than three times its regular that even caused a camel that he was riding to fall to the floor when he was recieving revelation. Thus in the eyes of the pagans led them to think and believe that Muhammad was possesed in which they accused him of.
In the field of medicine and the study of neurology Epilepsy are iregulare discharge impulses of the brain that burst at one time over loading the centural nervuse system causing the Body to go into a state of shock giving temporary uncontiousness.
The type of epilepsy to be identified with the nature of Muhammad's condition would be a Granmal Seizure. However, there is no report of foaming of the mouth nor him loosing his tongue which are two things that occure in a Granmal Seizure. If they were able to subdue his biting of the tongue then there should have been foaming of the mouth.
Also, when having a Granmal Seizure the temperture of the body does not increase to the point of where one would start to sweat but to the contrary the body temperture starts to decrease due to abnormal shock, and then again for him to sweat in cold climate makes it very doubtful.
Another thing when you have Granmal Siezure there is a loss in memory after recovery, not gain. So let us look at some examples of this "epileptic untterance".
Quote:
[91] washshamsi wa dhuHaahaa ~ By the Sun and its appearance
[91] walqamari idzaa talaahaa ~ By the Moon when it succeeds it
[91] wannahaari idzaa jallaahaa ~ By the Day when reveals it
[91] wallayli idzaa yaghshaahaa ~ By the Night when it conceals it
[91] wassamaa'i wa maa banaahaa ~ By the Sky and what erected it
[91] walardhi wa maa TaHaahaa ~ By the Earth and what hurls it
[91] wa nafsiwwa maa sawwaahaa ~ By the soul and what proportioned it
[91] fa'alhamahaa fujoorahaa wa taqwaahaa ~ and then infused into it it's iniquity and its piety
Notice how the arabic of each verse all rhyme with each other ? the gender in arabic is exact no mistakes at all. Through out the whole Quran this style of rhyme occures at the ending of every verse.
Quote:
[23] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay
[23] Then We placed him as a sperm into a thing that sojournes and implants
[ 24:15] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers
The same rhyming pross is in the arabic of the above verse but this time it speaks about how we are created. The above is a stage by stage discription of embryo development.
I find it amazing that a man who was suppose to have an epileptic attack started to uttere these words right after. Go an show any Neurologist this and tell him the man who uttered these words did it right after having a granmal seizure, he would laugh at you silly.
"no chronological bases" You are right. If you ever took the time to read the Quran from A-Z, not a part here and there, and understood the character of its non chronological order. Do you know why every chapter in the Quran is called SURAH. Surah means "Step". Thus the Quran has a 114 STEPS. Step 1 Step 2 Step 3 etc...These steps are laid down in lessons. When you go to the next step or chapter it goes more into debt in matters and subjects previously mentioned or new ones. Also the order it is in starts out with longer to shorter verses and words. The vocabulary is harder in the begining that decreases to the end. This is easier for memorization purposes. Thus the composition of the Quran was DELIBERATELY set like this with a PURPOSE void to your understand.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=20
Now if you say he was possessed then he had no control and nothing would be of his own doing. So he would get all his information from the demon rather than having to go to someone else to get information from the bible. So this would mean the accusations of him copying from the bible goes out the door if he was possessed by a demon.
The composistion of those verses are seen as deliberate and with purpose to their phenomina. It would take complete concentration and awareness of a human being and to be profoundly educated and versed in the Arabic language to develope something as to which Muhammad uttered that you imply as being the result of epileptic fits and all the circumstances surrounding such phenomina.
Liberate wrote:I find it improbable anyone who is aware of how the koran was revealed, the historical context that led to it's creation can seriously believe anyone with an objective view can see that this is from God.
Thus we have examined your claims and found them it to be illogical due to the phenominal nature of the Quran.
Quran is interpreted with hadith, ignore hadith quran cannot stand, instead you have 114 verses with no chronology or historical context whatsoever, a jumbled up mess, which is precisely what you believe in when you chose to ignore hadiths. The hadiths show islam to be nothing more than Mohammed's vivid imagination at best and demonic inspired at worst.
Hmm lets see from since I came to this forum I have only been using the Quran in defense and have not once brought forth a hadith other than means to counter act a hadith that is being used against us. An I ignore hadiths that contradict Quran or that contradict other hadiths.
Quote:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 546:
What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle"
This is Mohammed's response:
"The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."
By telling us that there is documentation that the jews tested Mohammed he is indirectly saying he believes this hadith, he is then indirectly saying he believes fish-liver will be eaten in paradise, and the reason why a child resembles the father is because of emission from him first or the mother because of emission from her first, this is nothing more than would be expected from a superstitious mind albeit with a vivid imagination, not from God. But will he now claim this hadith is a fabrication?
Would you care to show us where this hadith contradicts the koran, itself or other hadiths?
Are you sure you are objectively looking for conflicts with the koran and other hadiths or conflicts with your conscience.
Hmm interesting. I read "
Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver" you read "only fish-liver". All this food talk is making me hungry I think I will go to the Sushi resturant and order some fish-liver, you should try it it taste really good and is healthy for you
yummyyy !
and give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds that for them is Paradise (Jannah) flowing from beneath it are rivers; everytime they are provided from it of provisional gain they(will)say: " This is what we were provided from before " and with it they are given the resemblance...(2:25)
"And We shall bestow On them, of fruit and meat, Anything they shall desire. ( 52:22)"
The Meat (lahm) of paradise will resemble that of the meat of this world but they will not be the same thing.
We can even go further into to this cause the Quran says we will be given "MEATL/FLESH in Arabic "LAHM", which does not apply to internal organs such a Fish-Liver or the caudate lobe of Fish-Liver.
If the report is accurate about the "caudate lobe of Fish-Liver" then according to Quran it will be something resembling it.
Liberate wrote:Of course you forget islamic 'states' use these hadiths for implementation of shariah law and to affect every aspect of a muslim's life, they do not treat it simply as insight into why a verse was revealed. It is obvious by now you are not a sunni muslim, or a shia, does your group have an official doctrine? or are you a nominal muslim making it up as you go along?
Islamic State ? Where in the world is one of those ? We know of Muslim Countries, but an
islamic state does not exist anymore. And what does fish-liver have to do with Shariah Law
Correct I am not a sunni muslim. The Quran nor the Hadith teach us to call our selves a Sunni, Shia, Salafi etc. muslim. Since your the hadith expert here...lol....please show us where it says to call our selves by such unauthorized titles which have not been taught by our Prophet nor mentioned in the Quran ? So where did it come these titles coem from ? Our prophet wasnt a Sunni etc. He was a Haneef Muslims as the Quran declared our Prophet to be and those who follow him.