Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahHe couldnt resist. O well lets see what you got here.
Dear Liberate,
Here is the Answer to the question you posted ...on
6/18/04.
You Asked:
I have seen the term "Sister of Aaron" I am wondering if such a term
was used in the Talmud, Tanakh or Torah or jewish religious material to
refer to someone that was not your real brother or sister.
Thanks for any feedback
Rabbi Freeman Epstein Answered:
Hi Liberate. The best I can answer your question is that, according to
the Bible, Miriam was the sister of Aaron and Moses. I have not heard
of the sister of Aaron in any other context.
Rabbi Jusdy Freeman Epstein
Please view the date of this supposed email when it was sent to the Rabbi above it is dated 06/18/04. Below Liberate made the accusation before he got information back from the Rabbi posted Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 07:43 am
In effect, when Muhammad was confronted with the mistake of confusing Mary as the sister of Aaron he said that Mary was called the "sister of Aaron" because Aaron was a pious person and Mary was called after Aaron. Muhammad meant that the use of the idiom "sister of Aaron" was not literal, but metaphorical. Nowhere in the Torah new testament, Talmud, Jewish or christian apocryphal wiritngs is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=80
When I saw such a bold statement I asked him to produce proof that he read the Talmud before which was posted Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 02:39 am
Talmud ? You read the Talmud before? Ok if you read the Talmud before then what is is the name of the First book in the Talmud and what is Chapter one pertaining to ? I made it easy. You should be able to tell us with know problem if you read the Talmud before. Other wise your statement above is that your guessing and have never read the Talmud before.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=80
Liberate never answered this question, even up to now. The reason why is that he never read the Talmud before to make such a bold statement " Nowhere in the Torah new testament, Talmud, Jewish or christian apocryphal wiritngs is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor "
The Question is did he LIE when making such an accusation before he got the answer back from the Rabbi ?
Now as I elaborated on the these findings per what Liberate said " Nowhere in .... Talmud....is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor." in which I said :
Go to any Jewish website or to an Orthadox Jew, I would recommend a Rabi instead, and email or ask them or him what does "Sister of Aaron" and "Brother of Levi" in Jewish Idiom meain.
Liberate not being able to prove he read the Talmud before[which he didnt], saw his error he made when making such a statement o0(oops)0o then he did as I asked before this got deeper. But however did he do as I asked ? No. Remember what he said " Nowhere in .... Talmud....is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor" and I replied exactly to this with " email or ask them [ Jews] or him [a Rabi] what does "Sister of Aaron" and "Brother of Levi" in Jewish Idiom mean".
Liberate sends the request to the Rabi :
I have seen the term "Sister of Aaron" I am wondering if such a term
was used in the Talmud[/u][/b], Tanakh or Torah or jewish religious material to
refer to someone that was not your real brother or sister
The Rabi answered :
Hi Liberate. The best I can answer your question is that, according to
the Bible, Miriam was the sister of Aaron and Moses. I have not heard
of the sister of Aaron in any other context.
1) The debate was if "Sister of Aaron" was a Jewish idiom , I said nothing about term
term
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: tûrm KEY
NOUN: 1a. A limited period of time. b. A period of time that is assigned to a person to serve: a six-year term as senator. See synonyms at period. c. A period when a school or court is in session.
2a. A point in time at which something ends; termination: an apprenticeship nearing its term. b. The end of a normal gestation period: carried the fetus to term. c. A deadline, as for making a payment.
3. Law a. A fixed period of time for which an estate is granted. b. An estate granted for a fixed period.
4a. A word or group of words having a particular meaning: had to explain the term gridlock. b. terms Language of a certain kind; chosen words: spoke in rather vague terms; praised him in glowing terms.
idiom
SYLLABICATION: id·i·om
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: d - m KEY
NOUN: 1. A speech form or an expression of a given language that is peculiar to itself grammatically or cannot be understood from the individual meanings of its elements, as in keep tabs on.
2. The specific grammatical, syntactic, and structural character of a given language.
3. Regional speech or dialect.
4a. A specialized vocabulary used by a group of people; jargon: legal idiom. b. A style or manner of expression peculiar to a given people: “Also important is the uneasiness I've always felt at cutting myself off from my idiom, the American habits of speech and jest and reaction, all of them entirely different from the local variety” (S.J. Perelman).
2) Liberate never asked the Rabi about " Brother of Levi" and its idiom usage in Judaism as he said " Nowhere in .... Talmud....is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor" in which my reply was " email or ask them [ Jews] or him [a Rabi] what does "Sister of Aaron" and "Brother of Levi" . Just for everyone to know the Idiom "Brother of Levi" applied to those of lineage and status among the brotherhood of the levitical priests is the key here which is antonymous of "Sister of Aaron".
3) The Rabi only asnwered the question to " I have seen the term "Sister of Aaron" I am wondering if such a term
was used in the Talmud, Tanakh or Torah Rabi's Answer : " Hi Liberate. The best I can answer your question is that, according to the Bible, Miriam was the sister of Aaron and Moses. I have not heard
of the sister of Aaron in any other context." The Rabi never answered the question: "..or jewish religious material to
refer to someone that was not your real brother or sister."
Later on Liberate continues to push the issue on where in Judaism is such an Idiom used :
Since you claim to be jewish, and you as you claim above that this is jewish idiom show us where in the whole of Judaism this idiom exists, you can't run away and say we muslims understand "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the aaronites or other such nonsense, when the alledge conversation in the koran and in that sahih muslim hadith was jews talking to Mary unless those jews are talking about understanding "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the Aaronites you are looking at a blatant lie, error and contradiction in your koran and hadiths, now show us since you claim to be jewish where this idiom is found, If you are unable to show us this idiom in judaism you are a liar like your prophet .
and I responded to him :
Yea Yea ! I been through this already with the Talmud, when I produced the proof willingly a back flip was done using it against us as proof Muhammad copied from the Jewish Talmud also.
He/She jumped to conclusion later on assuming when I said " I been through this already with the Talmud " to mean that the idiom "Sister of Aaron" was is in the Talmud. However he didnt see the chess move I was making, cause what I went through before with another Christian is with the idiom "Brother of Levi" to show its usage in the Talmud which is antonymous with "Sister of Aaron".
So I gave it more time to find out what he/she was up to, and then wondering why wont he/she answer my Question from the begining " Did he/she ever read the Talmud before ?" But now he demands for me to show him where the idiom usage is at, but he wouldnt asnwer my demand of " prove to me you read the Talmud " in which he presented first.
For our readers to please note. The Quran mentions many words, titles, and names ascribed to Jewish prophets and righteous people that the Bible, the Tanakh, and the Talmud do not mention. From example before, with my debate with the Christian woman who decided to bring up the name of G-D in the old testament.
In Hebrew G-D says in bible: "..ahyah ashar ahyah.." and in the Quran its says "..innanee anaa Alllaah.."
The Bible
..ahyah ashar ahyah.. ~ I am that I am [ thus is suppose to be reference to the true name of G-D as YHWH]
The Quran
..innanee anaa Alllaah.. ~ Verily I am, I am Alllaah
And many many more examples. If something is not mentioned then it isnt true according to Liberate form of reasoning. Let me remind everyone there is little record of Maryam mother of Jesus. There is no geneology of her of who her mother and father was but only that she was Elezabeth's cousin who was of the daughters of Aaron infering that Maryam mother of Jesus was also of the daughters of Aaron {wink}.
The Supposed Geneology of Maryam or Joseph ?
Luke 3:23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
24 the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
26the son of Naggai, the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
28the son of Neri, the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
30the son of Levi, the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
32the son of David, the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,[4] the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[5]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
34the son of Judah, the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
36the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
38the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bib ... howxref=on
Christians have been making allegation using the above passage to say it refers to the geneology of Maryam, but it doesnt, it is the second geneology of Joseph that may run into conflict with his first genelogy given in Mathew 1:1 depending of how it is interpretated:
The Genealogy of Jesus [through Joseph]
Mathew 1:1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[1] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bib ... ersion=NIV
If this is not a contradiction of the geneology of Joseph then each is a summerized geneology in which the other does not include a specific account of the other which are stemed from two different traditional sources.
The Talmud bashes the Mother of Jesus and her son. Jewish records that mention her degrade her status so why would they retain or even call her by the honorable status "Sister of Aaron" if it was indeed a status. The key is to look for other antonymous idioms.
Liberate's email to the Rabi was inconsistant of its accuracy in being specific to the word usage in which the Rabi himself did not answer all of his questions.
My request to you Liberate is to email the Rabi back again requesting if the status of "Brother of Levi" is an IDIOM [not a TERM] in Judaism designating one whom is of the brotherhood of the Levite and Linage.
When the wife of Imran said: "My Lord ! Verily indeed I have sworn to you what is in my stomach as consecrated, so accept it from me. Verily you ! You are the All-Hearing the Omniscient. Whereas when she gave birth she said: " My Lord ! Verily my Lord I gave birth to a female, " while Allah knew best what it was she brought forth, " and not is the male like the female, and I have designated her as Maryam and I seek refuge for with you and her descendants from the satan acursed. So her Lord accpeted her with good acceptance.... (Quran 3:35-37)
Before we made comment on the hadith that the translator translated the word "sammoo" wrong and "sammoo" means to "designate by name or title [as in the sence of appointing]" which is different from the regular "ism" or name . The word "sammoo" has a wider meaning from "ism". In the above verse in the Quran the Arabic word "sammoo" is used in context as "sammay-tu-haa" meaning "I have designated her" in the sence of appointing to a particular position which is followed by the name "Maryam".
What is Maryam the mother of Jesus' comparison with Miryam Sister of Aaron brother of Moses ?
Both belonged to a preistly family descendance of Levi, both where virgins in which Maryam mother of Jesus was consecrated from birth {which only the preists did among their families} for a particular position, and both received inspiration from Alllah. Miryam sister of Aaron brother of Moses had a high position among the preists whom Maryam mother of Jesus must have also, being that she was "Designated" to a position among the Aaronites to received the status "Sister of Aaron" being like Miryam Sister of Aaron brother of Moses.
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