Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahQuote:
Several times he has stated that this is jewish idiom, several times I have asked him to show us where this jewish idiom is in judaism, he has refused and has now given us an incredible linguistic and semantic acrobatics, he shows us an arabic dictionary that the word qawm really means clan, a phantom clan of the aaronites who Mary was affiliated with that never commited dultery(ofcourse there is no source for this but him and him alone), in other words he wants us to believe the verse is really saying that it refers to family, relatives or ancestors according to his dictionary submeanings. In other words he wants us to believe the verse really means:
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I dont want you to believe anything. It is not why I am here. Again the Quran stated the act which they accused her of doing which was something unheard-of to her "qawm", which is not refering to the Jews in general whom many of them have a long history of commiting adultry and fornication.
Not so fast, it was you that stated repeatedly that this was jewish idiom, and that you have produced the proof in the talmud. Let me be blunt if you are unable to provide the proof I will no longer engage in a conversation with a liar.
Well then dont continue with me. I have not with drawn from my statement, it is a Jewish Idiom as the Quran indicates it as used by the Jews in the time of Jesus, and the hadith of our prophet that supports it. So, no, I dont need to go to the Talmud for support, plus this would be against what WE agreed upon from the begining that you keep retreating to whenever we start criticizing the bible.
"Carrying the child, (Jesus), she (Mary) came to her people, who said to her: "Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot."" sura 19:27-28
In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu'bah,book 24 #5326, says: "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger I asked him about that, and he said: "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them."" [Sahih Muslim, translated by Abdul Siddiqi].
Dear Liberate,
Here is the Answer to the question you posted ...on
6/18/04.
You Asked:
I have seen the term "Sister of Aaron" I am wondering if such a term
was used in the Talmud, Tanakh or Torah or jewish religious material to
refer to someone that was not your real brother or sister.
Thanks for any feedback
Rabbi Freeman Epstein Answered:
Hi Liberate. The best I can answer your question is that, according to
the Bible, Miriam was the sister of Aaron and Moses. I have not heard
of the sister of Aaron in any other context.
Rabbi Jusdy Freeman Epstein
You stated before that such idiom does not exist in the Talmud, again how do you know this when you have never read the Talmud ? I asked you for a certain reference to the Talmud in which you never replied to proving to our audience that you read the Talmud before. Now are you lieing ? Now how many times have you been dishonest in reference to the Quran and hadith ? Well I leave that for the people to decide.
If you had bothered to read the next post the answer was there. Regarding Ibn Zaid why don't you tell your audience what "Ibn Zaid" means. Like I told you I am more than happy to admit to any error, than make logical fallacies to soothe my conscience.
The isnad includes Zaid, unless you believe Zaid is lying, that brings into question all the other hadiths by Zaid, remember the quirra hadith and how Zaid collected the koran maybe that is a lie too, you have to ask yourself some simple questions what does Younis or Zaid have to gain by lying? There are muslims what is in it for them? If they could predict these hadiths would be used against the prophet at a later future date that makes them better prophets than Mohammed.
Ehm. I think you are getting you Zaids mixed up here: The Zaid reporting the hadith is the third transmitter of the hadith long after Zaid son of Haritha. As again you have bad reading comprehension:
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Narrated by Younis, narrated by Ibn Wahab, narrated by Ibn Zaid who said, “The prophet –pbuh- had married Zaid son of Haritha to his cousin Zaynab daughter of Jahsh. One day the prophet – pbuh- went seeking Zaid in his house, whose door had a curtain made of hair. The wind blew the curtain and the prophet saw Zaynab in her room unclothed and he admired her in his heart. When Zaynab realized that the prophet desired her she began to hate Zaid
This tells me just how much you know of your religion or are willing to deceive for it's benefit, anybody who has read hadiths with isnads will know that the hadiths are left to right, from the most recent transmitter all the way to the prophet or companions of the prophet, why don't you tell us all what "ibn Zaid" means. Ibn Zaid is not the third transmitter but the first.
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Nowhere in the Torah new testament, Talmud, Jewish or christian apocryphal wiritngs is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor
Talmud ? You read the Talmud before? Ok if you read the Talmud before then what is is the name of the First book in the Talmud and what is Chapter one pertaining to ? I made it easy. You should be able to tell us with no problem if you read the Talmud before. Other wise your statement above is that your guessing and have never read the Talmud before. http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=80
Prove to us that you have read the Talmud, and then we will show you, unless, you see it first where the term "Brother of Levi" , a Jewish Idiom of purity refering to one of Levite lineage and brotherhood, antonymous of Sister of Aaron, a Jewish Idiom of purity refering to one of Aaronite lineage and sisterhood. It took me 3 years to read through all those volumes of the Talmud, I dont think a person of your prejudice would have been so patient in doing this due to its content toward Christianity it self. Anyhow, you reneged again and went against your own words from before as we where suppose to stick to and agreed on:
You are the one that invited the Talmud into this, so your the one that has to prove it not me, when in our teachings it tells us it is a Jewish Idiom. You called me a bluff , I would think here for you to bring this up it is something that you your self is guilty of.
Further we will not answer your Question until you answer ours since it was you that introduced the Talmud into this, and whereas we first asked the Question in the above quote to prove you have read the Talmud before.
Who did the children of Adam marry? How did cain get his wife? Who did he get his wife from? At what point did marriage between close knit family groups come to a halt? [Hint: Leviticus 18]
Hmm. Lets see there are two possible ways man could have multiplied. We agree that Adam and his wife bared two sons called Cain and Abel, but it makes no mention of their daughters
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." ....But for Adam [8] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [9] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man." ......20 Adam [3] named his wife Eve, [4] because she would become the mother of all the living....1 Adam [1] lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. [2] She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth [3] a man." 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.
The Conflict
16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [6] east of Eden.
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch...etc[/size]
Please note the above was summerized from Geneses Chap 1-4:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bib ... ersion=NIV
IF we take this chronologically to be exact as Cain and Abel were the two sons of Adam, making no mention of daughters, and then all of a sudden Cain has a wife, then it is reasoned that there had to be other people on earth before Adam in which Cain married one of their daughters which would contradict Adam being the father of mankind or the first man G-D created.
But however the above is the atheist views. Not the Christian, Jewish, or Islamic views.
The Christian, and Jewish views is that Cain's wife was his own sister (Lit.) in which G-D allowed (The sister and brother marriage) for a period of time for man to multiply then later prohibited in which the verses of Genensis are summerized in. Thus would give purpose for people to marry their Aunts and Uncles etc (as what we call incest today) before the Torah, in which it was allowed and was perfectly ok. (Note: Not all Christians agree to this though)
The Islamic view is divided on this. Some muslims hold the same views as Jews and Christians which are merely adopted in which the Quran and Hadith DO NOT SUPPORT.
The others believe that G-D in the begining multiplied men through the daughters, and grand daughters of Adam and his wife the same way he made it possible for Maryam to give birth to Jesus without a male father. Thus Cain's wife could of been also his cousin rather than his sister as marrying your cousin is not prohibited, and has ever since been a practice, whereas they lived prolonged ages to see 6-8 generations of their families and Kin. Also to add to this G-D sent prophets through out the world to every nation even before the Torah, in which the Jews were not the only nation to receive a Law.
I hold to the last view as I do not believe that Alllaah (G-D) ever allowed such thing of one marrying his sister etc. Of course we muslims look at the birth of Jesus as a miracle and a manifestation of Alllaah's power in which He could have also done in the past and not just to Maryam alone. Why do I say this ? Cause there is numerous religions that existed before Christianity and Judaism that have simular beliefs of men being born just like that of Jesus.
Do you realise I was asking you rhetorical questions? which you chose to answer, when I showed you Leviticus 18. Is your purpose to provide an answer no matter how ridiculous?.
I am no longer conducting this conversation as personally from the language of the current user I believe I am speaking to more than one individual; who was not who I started with. I am also stopping this conversation as I know when I am talking to a brick wall unable or unwilling to see through their own logical fallacies.
I have showed my proof from a rabbi, it is up to the individual to provide his, as Sale put it this error:
"...which intolerable anachronism, if it were certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this
book."
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