Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahMaryam is still an Aaronite?
would you care to show us where you are obtaining this from your koran alone? Am I talking to a brick wall? If you are a descendant of someone why would you be called the "sister of that someone" wouldn't the "daughter of that someone" be the appropriate term?. Are you going to show us where the jews are using this term referring to other jews as "sister of Aaron"?
Do you realise the height of arrogance it takes to go to the bible and claim it says what it doesn't say, now you are expecting us to believe that the bible supports that Mary was an Aaronite, and since you claim to be jewish Jesus is now an Aaronite? not a descendant of David and therefore might as well not be the messiah according to you
I will try to answer all of this in one shot with the rest of you posts that follow dealing with the same issue with Maryam.
First I want to get one thing clear. You keep saying I am a Jew or I claim to be a Jew, I never told you such a thing. I said I use to be Jew, and now I am muslim. I was not Jewish by family or descent I was Jewish by convertion.
Is this your attempt to tell me that you have no evidence for that idiom in judaism? or you are trying to weasel out of showing us the idiom?. Anybody reading your posts will have the distinct impression that you were trying to pass off as a born jew all along, making comments that the rabbis didn't like you and you used to be a jew doesn't help your honesty with this confession especially when there is a school of thought that you are not jewish unless you are born jewish.
Then she brought him (the baby Jesus) to her clan (qawm)* carrying him. They said : " O Maryam Indeed you have done something unheard-of !* O Sister of Aaron your father was not an evil man nor was she-your mother a whore ! *
What
What are you trying to prove here?
Your website source for qawm (you probably were secretly hoping I wouldn't check) says: family , population , kinsmen , kin , kinsfolk , kindred , residents
Are you now saying that the word really doesn't refer to her people but to a mysterious clan of the aaronites that were not jewish? To be honest I find your excuse of an explanation absolutely ridiculous:
I encourage everybody to put the arabic قوم in http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=try and translate it from the arabic to english it simply says = a people. قومها on the same site simply says her people.
Yusuf Ali interpretes that verse: At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
Shakir: And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing.
Sher Ali: Then she brought him to her people, mounted. They said, `O Mary, surely, thou hast committed a monstrous thing!
Sale: So she brought [the child] to her people, carrying him [in her arms. And] they said [unto her], o Mary, now hast thou done a strange thing:
Rodwell: Then came she with the babe to her people, bearing him. They said, "O Mary! now hast thou done a strange thing!
The verdict is unanimous, I find it truly amazing our friend would stoop to such a length to basically say Mary was not talking to her people "but the clan her family was affiliated with" what clan where is he getting this information from? the same quran everybodyelse is reading?
I don't know what exactly you are fumbling at here. This is what you said earlier:
"O sister of Aaron" ~ Yaa ukhta haaroona". You didnt even have to quote hadeeth. I automatically knew its indicated religious affiliation. This is Jewish idiom expressing her sisterhood of the Aronites. Go ask a Jew about this type of Idiom reference and if they use it among them selves...
In the Quran Maryam was addressed as " Sister of Aaron" this is Jewish idiom ...
I then asked you
I think it is time I call your bluff on this, if it is in there would you care to show us where it is
Would you care to cite for us where this jewish idiom is found?
Wait a minute do you not see the commentary, the conversation in the koran was about jews talking to Mary, the jews were the one calling Mary "sister of Aaron", where is this idiom in judaism?
Still without a response I asked you this:
Since you claim to be jewish, and you as you claim above that this is jewish idiom show us where in the whole of Judaism this idiom exists, you can't run away and say we muslims understand "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the aaronites or other such nonsense, when the alledge conversation in the koran and in that sahih muslim hadith was jews talking to Mary unless those jews are talking about understanding "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the Aaronites you are looking at a blatant lie, error and contradiction in your koran and hadiths, now show us since you claim to be jewish where this idiom is found, If you are unable to show us this idiom in judaism you are a liar like your prophet
To which you said:
Yea Yea ! I been through this already with the Talmud , when I produced the proof willingly a back flip was done using it against us as proof Muhammad copied from the Jewish Talmud also.
I then asked you :
Then show us the proof again, if you are scared of plagiarism the readers will judge for themselves, then again it is nothing new about the koran, you have zoroastrianism, persian, christian and jewish apocryphal books plagiarised in there, so what is one more plagiarism from the talmud, show us the idiom pls.
So now you are unwilling or are you unable to produce the proof? and have resorted to a mass paste of irrelevant unsupported material, if you produced it before what is stopping you from producing it now? Or are you just another muslim who is willing to fabricate and lie to support the lies of your faith.
Let me see there are all subject to criticism and...? Let me remind you of the question I asked you that brought this up Has the message from the versions of the bible changed?
Sure lets look at one main discripancy in translation between Jews and Christians
What is this statement above in relation to?
This is the conversation:
My opinion on this is that the majority of the Christians that reject the trinity do favor the NIV over the KJV.
Would you care to cite for us the names of these majority of christians that are not trinitarians and prefer the NIV over the KJV
Let me see there are all subject to criticism and...? Let me remind you of the question I asked you that brought this up Has the message from the versions of the bible changed?
Sure lets look at one main discripancy in translation between Jews and Christians
I asked you to show us the majority of christians that were not trinitarians and supported the NIV over the KJV, you didn't do this, you instead went off on a mass web link post about the errors in the kjv. When I ask that they are subject to criticism and??? you suddenly change tactic and now as a response make the subject of discussion differences between christians and jews (when did jews enter the conversation topic???) you even precede your response with the definite adverb in your sentence: Sure lets look at one main discripancy in translation between Jews and Christians
as if I asked you what were the discrepancies between jews and christians?
This is a tiresome topic bethulah and almah are interchangeable:
(1) Genesis 24:16 "Now the young woman [*na'arah*] was very beautiful to behold, a virgin [*bethulah*]; no man had known her. And she went down to the well, filled her pitcher, and came up."
In this verse Rebekah is referred to as a *bethulah*, but the text adds the qualifying clause "no man had known her." Such a qualifying clause would be unnecessary if *bethulah* unambiguously meant "virgin." Later in the same story, Rebekah is referred to as an *'almah* (vs. 43) with no qualifying clause.
source: http://answering-islam.org.uk/BibleCom/is7-14.html
I encourage everybody to paste this text in http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=try and translate it from the arabic to english this is what the first part says [They deceived and he deceived to ..] So your god is a deceiver?
The root word comes from makar meaning to cheat/deceive, even this arabic translator knows that allah is a deceiver but yet look at the variations in interpretations: .........Ofcourse our friend has decided to tow the line of sleight of hand hoping no one notices the interpretators are being deceitful as to what the verse implied:
Have a look at his interpretation of that verse:
Quote:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters.
Like our friend said earlier when the meaning is open to interpretation the correct interpretation "can be obtained from the context", what is the context of this verse? allah is plotting to do the same thing as the unbelievers, to kill them, this sounds like the devil to me.
Amazing. This was suppose to be a response to you original question "Where does the koran explicitly state this?" refering to where does the Quran state that there will be no return of Jesus. Then you came up with the above that has absolutlely nothing to do with Jesus' second return then after the above you revert to the same question again "And where does it state that Jesus is not coming back?"
Verse 3:54 of the Quran has nothing to do with the second return of Jesus' or disproval of it. It seems your objective here was about the translation.
Need I remind you that I was responding to your post, or did you quickly forget you were the one that initially posted that verse:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)
[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)
As it is becoming blatantly obvious it seems you really should create your version of the koran because this is what the RECOGNISED translators agree sura 5:116-118 says:
116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" [Why didn't you include this bit? didn't you want to discuss why allah thinks christians worship Mary as part of the trinity?] He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117."Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118 "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." (Yusuf Ali's translation)
Again where does it explicitly state that Jesus is not coming back?
And where does it state that Jesus is not coming back?
I posted it, when he was raised to Allah he became deceased in Quran 3:55 which is confirmed in Quran 5:116-117 which is on the day of Judgment he speaks of the past when he was among the Jews whereas during that time Allah cause him to decease, then again he appears on the Day of Judgement after the resurrection of all mankind. Use your head, is your reading comprehension that bad you dont know what an inference is ? ...
I see would you care to explain sura 19:33 and the usage of the future tense " the day I die" if Jesus is not coming back
Here is the arabic and transliteration:
وَالسَّلَمُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
Waalssalamu AAalayya yawma wulidtu wayawma amootu wayawma obAAathu hayyan
The translation universally agreed even with the online translation uses the future tense of "I die":
""So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die , and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!"
The koran if any logic is to be used on that verse indicates Jesus is not dead, He is alive somewhere and is to come back to die again.
You are absolutely right. Embryology has nothing to do with people being made from out of clay. I couldnt agree with you anymore. But however, embryology and man being made from clay does have something to do with the EVOLUTION OF MANKIND, unless you beleive you came from a monkey . {Smile}
Clay has to do with the evolution of mankind? why is a muslim believing in evolution?, please elaborate on exactly what you mean here with clay, the evolution of mankind and embryology. Did you read what I said about the sequential meaning of thumma? how on earth can you not see that the verses you have described as pertaining to embryology can equally be seen as the creation of man according to allah, that is of adam and eve period.
"Then, when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that there might be no difficulty to the believers in marriage to wives of their adopted sons." Surah 33:37
Here our Wishful Thinker goes on to humilating and assaulting our Prophet with the above. But again he didnt go to the Quran it self to verify this but here merely is copy and pasting from his contemporary Christian web sites against islam. Now lets see, if he was to go back and confirm this he would see they quoted out of context :
[33] Behold! thou (Muhammad) didst say to one (Zaid) who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled. [Very revealing]
Now for the readers our profit [freudian slip?] told Zaid to keep his wife. Now why did Zaid want to divorce his wife ? [Why don't you ask yourself is this normal?, do you recall what I said about fabricated hadiths it's these type of hadiths I was referring to. They look suspicious from the word go, you should be asking yourself why a son would want to divorce his wife so his father can have her; that is incest!] Will as you know our Wishful Thinker was in a habit of quoting hadith but why did he stop? Cause this is what he would have found:
Bukhari Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 516.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas : Zaid bin Haritha came to the Prophet complaining about his wife. The Prophet kept on saying (to him), "Be afraid of Allah and keep your wife." 'Aisha said, "If Allah's Apostle were to conceal anything (of the Quran he would have concealed this Verse." Zainab used to boast before the wives of the Prophet and used to say, "You were given in marriage by your families, while I was married (to the Prophet) by Allah from over seven Heavens." And Thabit recited, "The Verse: 'But (O Muhammad) you did hide in your heart that which Allah was about to make manifest, you did fear the people,' (33.37) was revealed in connection with Zainab and Zaid bin Haritha."
Why was Zaid complaining about his wife ?
Zainab was the the cousin of the Holy Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him) . She was the daughter of Omaimah : the daughter of Abdul Muttalib. Zainab was married to Zaid . She could not adjust with Zaid because he felt that Zainab considerd him as of no match with her . Later on , he divorced her against the will of the Holy Prophet . This incidence was not a bad experience as Allah wanted to break an old custom of the Arabs preventing them from marrying a woman already divorced by the man whom they once adopted as their son . They believed in the same status for the real son as for the adopted son crushing the marital rights of a divorced women . If an adopted son died , they did not marry his widow .To abolish this bad custom it was only the Holy Prophet who had to set an example of carrying out the will of Allah and Allah ordered him to marry Zainab because she did not consider anybody to be her match except her cousin the Holy Prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon
http://www.adly.net/zaid.htm
So now Zainab wanted to leave zaid because he was too poor so she can be with allah's prodigy?
I have met this tactic many times before, a commentary with no hadith source whatsoever, do you take as truth any website that glorifies Mohammed with no quran or hadith source? the website was Completed on Friday the 12th Nov.1999 at 11:00 AM you are trying to pass it like it was hadith.
what differentiates between a pack of lies and what the quran and hadiths say? Do you remember what we agreed?
I wonder if you have read this: [] My comments
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3330:
Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported: When the 'Iddah of Zainab was over [Iddah is waiting period before you consumate your marriage with a widow, how convenient], Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to Zaid to make a mention to her about him [No doubt that the waiting period was over and it was time!]. Zaid went on until he came to her and she was fermenting her flour. He (Zaid) said: As I saw her I felt in my heart an idea of her greatness so much so that I could not see towards her (simply for the fact) that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had made a mention of her [Let us get this straight Mohammed told his son to go and mention him to his son's wife? the son goes to his wife and feels her greatness??? do you honestly believe this?] So I turned my back towards her. and I turned upon my heels, and said: Zainab, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has sent (me) with a message to you. She said: I do not do anything until I solicit the will of my Lord. So she stood at her place of worship and the (verse of) the Qur'an (pertaining to her marriage) were revealed [Do you not see something strange about Zaid's behaviour ( is this the behaviour of a 7th century arab who is about to divorce his wife? Do you realise it was then that Mohammed declared allah wants them to get married it is clear to any rational individual something was already going on between Mohammed and zainab) there is no logical reason for zaid's behaviour in this hadith, her greatness couldn't have overwhelmed him as there are other hadiths that he had sex with her before the divorce at the orders of Mohammed, the whole hadith is irrational the only logical thing I can ascertain from this hadith is that Zaid was aware his great prophet of a father was sleeping with his wife ofcourse if that was what really happened and the hadiths indicate this was a major scandal somebody tried to cover it up ) Aisha even mentioned that "your god indeed rushes in coming to your aid"] , and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to her without permission. ..."
If the above hadith is still ambiguous as to what is going on let us see what the leading commentaries have to say:
From the commentary of AL Tabari in his book “The Complete collection of Koranic Commentary” or “Jamia Al Bayan” in Arabic we find the following:
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispT ... 33&nAya=37
Quote:
When the exalted Allah said, “Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favor: ‘Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.’ But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah” this was said by Allah as chastisement to His prophet. For when He said, “one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favor” this was in reference to Zaid son of Thabit who had been set free by the apostle of Allah – prayers and peace be upon him.
When the Exalted Allah said, “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah” this was concerning Zaynab daughter of Jahsh whom the prophet – pbuh- had seen in her robes and was enamored by her. Thus when Allah saw what was stirring in His prophet’s soul, he placed hatred in the heart of Zaid towards Zayned [Do you honestly believe God would do such a thing cause a man to leave his wife to satisfy his prophet's lust!!!] that he may depart from her. When Zaid mentioned his intention to separate from Zayneb to the prophet, but the prophet told him, “Retain thou thy wife” even though the prophet desired that they separate so that he could marry her...
When Allah said, “Thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest,” means that the prophet hid in his heart his desire for Zaid to depart from Zaynab so that he may marry her, and Allah will reveal what you are concealing in your heart concerning this.
The Almighty said, “Thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah,” because Allah was telling the prophet who feared people might say, “He ordered a man to divorce his wife so that he himself may marry her after she is divorced,” and Allah aught to be feared more than people.
Narrated by Younis, narrated by Ibn Wahab, narrated by Ibn Zaid who said, “The prophet –pbuh- had married Zaid son of Haritha to his cousin Zaynab daughter of Jahsh. One day the prophet – pbuh- went seeking Zaid in his house, whose door had a curtain made of hair. The wind blew the curtain and the prophet saw Zaynab in her room unclothed and he admired her in his heart. When Zaynab realized that the prophet desired her she began to hate Zaid
Zaid then came to the prophet – pbuh- and said, “O apostle of Allah, I wish to separate from my mate.” The prophet responded, “Why? Has anything evil come from her?” Zaid responded, “No, by Allah! I haven’t seen anything evil from her only good.”
The prophet said, “ Hold unto your wife and fear Allah.” That is what Allah said in the Koran, “Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favor: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest.” For the prophet was concealing the fact that he would marry Zaynab when Zaid had divorced her.
The above was taken from the commentary of Al-Tabari in his book “The Complete collection of Koranic Commentary”
The next commentary is taken from authoritative, ancient and eminent Islamic scholar AL-Kurtubi from his book, “The Collection of Koranic Legislation” in Arabic its, “AL Jamia li-Ahkam Al-Koran”
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispT ... 33&nAya=37
Quote:
Mukatil narrated that the prophet married Zaynab daughter of Jahsh to Zaid and she stayed with him for a while. Then one day the prophet –pbuh- came seeking Zaid but he saw Zaynab standing; she was white skinned with a beautiful figure and one of the most perfect women in Quriash. So he desired her and said, “Wondrous is Allah who changes the heart.” When Zaynab heard the prophet’s exaltation of her, she relayed it to Zaid who then understood (what he had to do) [Makes logical sense right? Looks like Mohammed was acting like a mafia don]. Zaid said to the prophet, “O prophet of Allah, allow me to divorce her, for she has become arrogant; seeing herself superior to me and she insults me with her tongue.”
The prophet replied, “Hold onto your wife and fear Allah.”
It was said that Allah had sent a wind which lifted the curtain to reveal Zaynab in her room. [All I can say is wow] When the prophet saw her he desired her and it delighted Zaynab to be desired by the prophet- pbuh. When Zaid returned home, she informed him of what had happened and Zaid was thus determined to divorce her.
The next section is taken from the ancient muslim biographer Ibn Saad, from his book, “The Higher Levels. Chapter titled: Zaynab daughter of Jahsh.” In Arabic its “Al Tabakat Al Kubra”
http://mirror.al-eman.com/Islamlib/view ... CID=107#s3
Quote:
Narrated by Muhammad son of Omar, narrated by Abd Allah Al Aslamy, narrated by Mohammed son of Yahya son of Habban who said, “The prophet came to the house of Zaid son of Haritha, previously known as Zaid son of Mohammed, seeking him but did not find him. Then Zaynab daughter of Jahsh, the wife of Zaid, invited the prophet –pbuh- to enter the house but he refused. Zayned said to the prophet, “Zaid is not here, but by my father and mother I ask you to enter.” The prophet refused to enter, but when Zaynab was told that the prophet was at the door, she hurried in getting dressed and came quickly and the prophet began to admire her. The prophet then left whispering something unintelligible except for the part, “Wondrous is Allah the Great. Wondrous is he who changes the heart.”
When Zaid returned home, Zaynab informed him that the prophet had come to his house. Zaid asked her, “Why didn’t you ask him to come in?”
She replied, “I invited him to come in but he refused. However, while he was leaving he said something that I didn’t understand but I was able to hear him say, ‘Wondrous is Allah the Great. Wondrous is he who changes the heart.’
Zaid then went to the prophet and said to him, “I have been told that you came to my house so, by my father and mother, why didn’t you enter? Perhaps if Zaynab is desirous to you I shall leave her.” .[This is the most illogical excuse I have ever heard for a man to want to divorce his wife, absolutely ridiculous]
The prophet then responded, “Hold onto your wife.” But Zaid was unable to do so from that day on, for he would often return to the prophet who would advice him, “Hold onto your wife.” Zaid would often say to the prophet, “O prophet I shall separate from her,” but the prophet would repeat, “Keep to your wife.” However, Zaid separated from her and she was segregated until her waiting period was over.
While the prophet was talking to Aisha, he fainted [another pileptic fit]. When he woke up he smiled and said, “Who will go to Zaynab and announce to her that Allah from heaven has wed me to her.” Then the prophet recited the verse of the Koran tat says:
“Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favor: "Retain thou thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved his marriage with her, with the necessary formality, We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that there may be no difficulty to the Believers in the matter of marriage with the wives of their adopted sons.”
Aisha then reported, “We were constantly reminded of Zaynab’s beauty and honor and how Allah from heaven had wed he the prophet. She used to see herself superior to us because of this. Then Salmah, the servant of the prophet, went out to confront Zaynab because of all this, but Zaynab explained the matter to her”
You can quote as many muslim apologetics as you want, you are not being logical at all regarding what the quran and hadiths say about this man you follow, it is truly amazing the depths muslims will go to defend the indefensible.
O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity. sura 33:53
When Hafsa caught Mohammed, in her bed, making love to his concubine Mariya (after telling her that her father wanted to see her so she would leave the house), Mohammed tried to please angry Hafsa by promising her that he will stay away from Mariya. At this point Allah intervenes in Mohammed's behalf: -
"O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives ? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Surah 66:1 Forgiving of what? Merciful of what?
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise. sura 66:2
Notice how our wishful thinker does LEEP FROG with the Chapters in the Quran as to a particular event that have nothing to do with each other.
My comments were a direct response to what you asked:
No this is what the koran and the hadiths indicate, every single uttering was to benefit Mohammed, to soothe his melagomania of an ego the world is created for him, 5% of booty is designated for him, his incestual relationships have been sanctioned by allah, the whole koran is literred with his sexual promiscuity being sanctioned by allah, this is an insult to the true God.
Show us where in the Quran that it INDICATED this that you are alledging ? Also the 5% booty that you are talking about, after receiving such a thing in such little amount what did he do with it thereon after? What does the hadiths that you soo much favor say. Also when Abraham, Moses, David, and Soloman went into wars didnt they obtain booty? Also how many wives did Abraham, Moses, and especially David and Soloman have ? According to you isnt this an insult to the true God also ?
So he adds more of his wishful thinking. Why doesnt he run to hadith about these verses like he was doing in the begining. Maybe if he did this is what he would have founded.
You now have a problem with me quoting quran after specifically stating
1) You never quote Quran but only Hadith
About Surah 33:53
Muslim Book 008, Hadith Number 3328.
------------------------------
Chapter : Excellence of emancipating a slave-girl and then marrying her...
I hope you are aware that there are other much more logical hadiths surrounding safiyah and not the ones you pick and chose:
I hope you have heard of Al Tabari aka the book of tabaquat. Surprise surprise the book also has the story of Safiyah.
"Safiyah was born in Medinah. She belonged to the Jewish tribe of Banu 'I-Nadir. When this tribe was expelled from Medinah in the year 4 A.H, Huyaiy was one of those who settled in the fertile colony of Khaibar together with Kinana ibn al-Rabi' to whom Safiyah was married a little before the Muslims attacked Khaibar. She was then seventeen. She had formerly been the wife of Sallam ibn Mishkam, who divorced her. One mile from Khaibar. Here the Prophet married Safiyah. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account". The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766) Safiyah had requested the Prophet to wait till he had gone a stage away from Khaibar. "Why?" asked the Prophet. "I was afraid for you on account of the Jews who still happened to be near at Khaibar!"
The reason Safiyah rejected the sexual advances of the 57-year-old Muhammad should be obvious to any objective person. I believe most women prefer to mourn than jump into bed with the killer of their father, husband and many relatives on the same day of their death. But the fact that the prophet of Allah could not contain his sexual urges for one day to let this young girl grieve, says a lot of his thinking and moral character. However as for the rest of the story we are not sure whether it is true or was fabricated by Muslim historians to wipe the impression of rape. But this is all we have and to find the truth we have to rely on these biased documents written by Muslim historians. The story goes on to say that Abu Ayyub was concerned for the safety of the prophet because he (Muhammad) had killed Safiyah's father, husband and many of her relatives. This is logical. It is foolish to sleep with a woman after killing her loved ones. But Safiyah’s excuse for rejecting Muhammad’s advances towards her seems unreasonable. When Muhammad took this young girl into his tent, he had already killed many Jews and was winning the war. If there were any Jews left, they probably were more worried for their own lives than Safiyah’s chastity. Also she was already in the tent alone with Muhammad, how the Jews would have known if they were engaged in sex or not? I wonder what other excuse could she make to a man who was the murderer of her father, husband and many of her relatives to let her alone at least that night?"
The next day a Walima (wedding-feast) was arranged on behalf of the Prophet
Note that the historian is saying that the wedding took place one day after the prophet got private with Safiyah and made his moves to have sex with her. This presented no problem for the prophet as he had his Allah reveal a verse saying it is okay to sleep with women captured in war without marrying them even if they are married. Do you honestly think she was so eager to have sex with the man who a few hrs earlier had killed her family, what woman in her right mind would stoop to such a level, is this the thing a girl from a close knit jewish family does?
And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess (Q. 4:24 )
The above verse shows that the holy prophet did not believe that slaves have any right. You could be a happily married woman living your own life, but if Muhammad and his devout followers attacked your town and captured you, you would lose all your rights, and while your husband was being killed or enslaved you would be given to a Muslim Mujahadeen who would rape you all with Allah’s blessings.
The other wives of the Prophet showed their jealousy by making slights upon her Jewish origin. But the Prophet always defended her. Once Safiyah was vexed to the extreme by the taunts of all the Arab wives of the Prophet. She took the complaint to the Prophet, who felt great compassion for her. He consoled her. He encouraged her. He equipped her with logic. He said: "Safiyah, take courage and be bold. They are in no way superior to you. Tell them: I am a daughter of the Prophet Harun, a niece of the Prophet Musa, and a wife of the Prophet Muhammad.
When she was brought along with other prisoners-of-war, the Prophet said to her, "Safiyah, your father always maintained enmity with me until Allah made the final decision." She said, "But Allah does not catch one for the sins of another.
This of course contradicts Muhammad’s own behavior who annihilated the entire Bani Qainuqa with the pretext that few of them had killed a Muslim in retaliation. That is despite the verse that says "Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" (Q. 53:38) Also it was not Allah who made the final decision. Safiyah's father was killed by Muhammad's men not by Allah. This would be the same as Hitler claiming that God killed all the Jews in the holocaust. If God wanted to kill all those people that Muhammad and his army killed He could have done it on his own. God needs no mercenaries to do his will.
The Prophet then gave her the choice of joining her people after freedom or accepting Islam and coming into a matrimonial relationship with him
We have to remember that Muhammad killed most of her people and banished the rest of them. So giving the choice to join her people is not much of a choice.
She was very intelligent and gentle and said, O Allah's Messenger, I had hoped for Islam, and I confirmed you before your invitation. Now when I have the honour to be in your presence, I am given a choice between kufr and Islam I swear by Allah, that Allah and His Messenger is dearer to me than my own freedom and my joining with my people. (Tabaqat)
Was this confession, if true, sincere? Was she safe to speak out her mind? She was enslaved by a man who had exterminated her family and could do with her the same. See the reference made to her "freedom". This shows clearly that she was not free. In fact she must have been very intelligent to fabricate those lies to save her own life.
Also in thew hadiths of Abu Dawod:
When Safiyah was married, she was very young, and according to one report she was hardly seventeen years old and was extremely beautiful. Once A'isha said a few sentences about her short stature, at which the Prophet said, "You have said a thing that if it were left in the sea, it would mix with it (and make its water dirty). " (Abu Dawud). She not only deeply loved the Prophet but also greatly respected him as Allah's Messenger, for she heard the conversations of her father and uncle after they went to Medinah. When the Prophet migrated to Medinah, they came to see him and find out whether he was the true Messenger of Allah spoken of in the Scriptures. When they got back and talked together that night, Safiyah was in her bed listening to them. One of them said, "What do you think about him?" He replied, "He is the same Prophet foretold by our Scriptures." Then the other said, "What is to be done?" The reply came that they must oppose him with all their
Is this story, narrated by Abu Dawud, credible? How can two Jews recognize Muhammad as the prophet foretold by their scriptures and decide to oppose him with all their might? It defies all logic. It takes a "deficient in intelligence" to believe in this nonsense. It is not clear whether Safiyah lied to conform and make her self accepted among her enemies or it is another fabrication of a zealot believer. Why would someone decide to oppose with all his might the one who he has found out to be the promised one of his own scriptures? But this is not all! Where in the bible it says anything about Muhammad? How come Safiyah’s father and uncle could decipher their scriptures and find about Muhammad while for 1400 years all Muslim scholars have been unable to do it?
So Safiyah was convinced of the truth of the Prophet. She spared no pain to look after him, care for him and provide every comfort that she could think of. This is evident since she came into his presence after the fall of Khaibar.
See how the writer contradicts himself in one page? Just a few lines above we read that she was captured and was taken to Muhammad as a prisoner. She didn’t come on her own. She was taken to the prophet because she was young and the prettiest of other women captured.
Bukhari also had some hadiths about safiyah:
Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz:
Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."
Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . (Sahih Bukhari vol 1 no 367)
Mahr or dowry is a money that a bride receives from her husband when he marries her. Muhammad did not pay Safiyah her Mahr because he had to pay it to himself for manumitting her. I don't have to comment on what this implies I am giving you a lot of credit to decipher the con for yourself if you are able to scrutinise christianity to the extent you seem to do no one needs to point you out the "forced consent" and stupidty of a coverup that has been done here.
About Surah 66: 1-4
Muslim Book 009, Hadith Number 3496-3497.
------------------------------
Chapter : Atonement is essential for one who made his wife unlawful for himself without the intention of divorce.
'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrated that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) used to spend time with Zainab daughter of Jahsh and drank honey at her house. She ('Aisha further) said: I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you... (up to). If you both ('Aisha and Hafsa) turn to Allah" up to: "And when the Holy Prophet confided an information to one of his wives" (lxvi. 3). This refers to his saying: But I have taken honey.
'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) liked sweet (dish) and honey. After saying the afternoon prayer he used to visit his wives going close to them. So he went to Hafsa and stayed with her more than what was his usual stay. I ('Aisha) asked about that. It was said to me: A woman of her family had sent her a small vessel of honey as a gift, and she gave to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) from that a drink. I said: By Allah, we would also contrive a device for him. I mentioned that to Sauda, and said: When he (Allah's Apostle) would visit you and draw close to you, say to him: Allah's Messenger, have you taken maghafir? And he would say to you: No. Then say to him: What is this odour? And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) felt it very much that unpleasant odour should emit from him. So he would say to you: Hafsa has given me a drink of honey. Then you should say to him: The honey-bees might have sucked 'Urfut, and I would also say the same to him and. Safiyya, you should also say this. So when he (the Holy Prophet) came to Sauda, she said: By Him besides whom there is no god, it was under compulsion that I had decided to state that which you told me when he would be at a little distance at the door. So when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came near, she said: Messenger of Allah, did you eat Maghafir? He said: No. She (again) said: Then what is this odour? He said: Hafsa gave me honey to drink. She said: The honey-bee might have sucked 'Urfut. When he came to me I told him like this. He then visited Safiyya and she also said to him like this. When he (again) visited Hafsa, she said: Messenger of Allah, should I not give you that (drink)? He said: I do not need that. Sauda said: Hallowed be Allah, by Him we have (contrived) to make that (honey) unlawful for him. I said to her: Keep quiet. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of 'Urwa with the same chain of transmitters.
Its your misunderstand of those verses which you never went back to investigate and made up you on WISHFUL THINKING as you went along. You are doing nothing but following what some Christian web site had said and you take it as truth without out investigating it your self.
At this stage before you dig yourself in a bigger hole, I'd suggest you enlighten yourself on my previous post on sura 66 and that hadith .
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... &start=160
Since you know what I am going to pull out, then maybe you should have prepared your answer in anticipation:
It was revealed in the fourth year he was in medina, between 625-626 AD (http://isgkc.org/EnglishQuran/sura4.htm). He deid in 632-633 AD 7 years later. Aisha was with him for ten years, in other words typical of Mohammed by the time the koran said marry women (which our friend has conveniently taken to mean women who have passed the age of puberty, and there are many different schools of thought on this, his view is a very small minority) Mohammed was already with a pre pubescent girl, a case of one rule for me and another rule for my followers the mantra of all cults.
Correct it was revealed between 625-626 making it also between the 3-4 Hijra of the muslim calendar. I posted this up for you in Arabic why dont you go copy and paste it and use your little Online Translator tool and see what it gives you.{Smile}
Being that Surah Al-nisaa ( The Women) was revealed after Aisha had gotten married to him in 623-624 (1-2 Hijra) he would have had to divorce her to comply with the command in the Quran but he didnt. But why didnt he divorce her ?
As we showed from before which you agreed the Hadith is false but here now you are still using it....lol
I also told you I believe the quran is also false and full of man and demonic fabrications, like I said from the beginning all we can use are the scriptures in front of us and apply logic to it.
Anyhow there has to be something wrong here cause Muhammad didnt divorce her to comply with the Quran.
For the same reasons he didn't get rid of his excess wives and concubines when he/allah revealed that muslims should only marry 4. For the same reasons he didn't follow his own law of iddah before having sex with a widow, considering he is the one that caused her to become a widow, (after he decapitated her husband's head, killed her father, her uncle and several relatives, he just had to have sex with the poor jewish woman on the same day he committed these atrocities ) it is an insult to say this was a merciful act on Safiyah, that she wanted to sleep with the same man not quite 24 hrs ago had wiped out her entire family not even allowing her to mourn but just had to have sex with her that same day while a muslim guarded the tent. You are aware that it was a jewish woman that is believed poisoned Mohammed?
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