Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahQuote:
Zacheriah was the father of Elizabeth ? Wow!! you want to study islam but you dont even know your own Bible. Lets see what the Bible says.
It seems you have no idea what I am trying to do, why all of a sudden do you rush off to the bible as the authority when you believe you have spotted a mistake? so you agree the bible is the authority, if it is the authority what business does Amram have being the father of Moses, Aaron, and Mary the mother of Jesus in the koran?
I was trying to show you a logical fallacy in your thinking, notice the statement at the end "according to you" Mary was put into the care of Zechariah, which makes him her guardian, therefore her uncle, therefore her as his daughter (for her to qualify as a sister of Aaron) which equally makes Elizabeth his daughter since they are cousins, but the point was lost on you so you scream go back to sunday school.
V.S.
[quote/This is strange, you have been to sunday school? So you have been a jew, a muslim and been to sunday school?. I will more than happily admit I made an error rather than claim I know it all, the difference between me and you is your error damns your beliefs, if that idiom doesn't exist the koran is a lie if the koran is a lie the koranic god is not the true God, you are headed for hell.
Which is it ? You were trying to do something but yet you made grave error while trying to formulate this. But Anyhow, anyway you look at it, in your gross error or not, Maryam is still an Aaronite which makes Jesus also an Aaronite and not a descendant of David being that Jospeh was not his biological father.
Maryam is still an Aaronite?
would you care to show us where you are obtaining this from your koran alone? Am I talking to a brick wall? If you are a descendant of someone why would you be called the "sister of that someone" wouldn't the "daughter of that someone" be the appropriate term?. Are you going to show us where the jews are using this term referring to other jews as "sister of Aaron"?
Do you realise the height of arrogance it takes to go to the bible and claim it says what it doesn't say, now you are expecting us to believe that the bible supports that Mary was an Aaronite, and since you claim to be jewish Jesus is now an Aaronite? not a descendant of David and therefore might as well not be the messiah according to you ( if you are going to edit what you said about Jesus not being the Messiah make sure you edit your paragraph to suit, it is still implied, you will notice I am not going to mention your other serious blunder about Aaron and Mary in the quran, if however the roles were reversed you would no doubt be telling me to go to the islamic equivalent of sunday school).
You are now going to lecture us all on which verses support the trinity? Are you telling us christians who use the NIV do not believe in the trinity?
My opinion on this is that the majority of the Christians that reject the trinity do favor the NIV over the KJV.
Would you care to cite for us the names of these majority of christians that are not trinitarians and prefer the NIV over the KJV
Let me see there are all subject to criticism and...? Let me remind you of the question I asked you that brought this up Has the message from the versions of the bible changed?
Yes indeed but allah's thoughts are curiously like Mohammed's and no other, right down to washing your nostrils, trimming your beard, and creating Adam after the afternoon prayer.
Yes indeed islam is a beautiful way of life, with such high gene. No religion in the words goes in to such dept and vast topics that "TEACH YOU ALL THINGS".
Yes ofcourse don't wear silk it's haram, don't have pictures of dogs or people in your home maybe it's shirk. And don't forget drinking camel's urine and dipping flies that have been wallowing in excrements in your soup cause one wing has a poison and the other wing the cure for the poison
Quote:
Obviously you know nothing of islam. Not all muslims BELIEVE in a second coming of Jesus. As a matter of fact the Quran REJECTS such a second coming. If the Hadith that mentions the second coming of Jesus is taken literally then it would contradict the Quran as the Quran makes it very clear he will not be seen again until the Day of Judgement.
...When Jesus was raised up to Allah in the Heaven he became DECEASED (mutawafan). There is no second return in which he will only appear for the second time on the Day of Judgment after the physical resurrection of all mankind.
Where does the koran explicitly state this?
Ok lets try it again:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)
[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)
Lets put it in Arabic maybe then you would understand better:
3:ููู
ูููุฑููุงู ููู
ูููุฑู ุงููููู ููุงููููู ุฎูููุฑู ุงููู
ูุงููุฑูููู (54)
I encourage everybody to paste this text in http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=try and translate it from the arabic to english this is what the first part says [They deceived and he deceived to ..] So your god is a deceiver?
The root word comes from makar meaning to cheat/deceive, even this arabic translator knows that allah is a deceiver but yet look at the variations in interpretations:
"They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer." Khalifa
"And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." Pickthall
"And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners." Shakir
"And Jesus's enemies planned and ALLAH also planned, and ALLAH is the Best of Planners." Sher Ali
"And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God." Yusuf Ali
Ofcourse our friend has decided to tow the line of sleight of hand hoping no one notices the interpretators are being deceitful as to what the verse implied:
Have a look at his interpretation of that verse:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. Like our friend said earlier when the meaning is open to interpretation the correct interpretation "can be obtained from the context", what is the context of this verse? allah is plotting to do the same thing as the unbelievers, to kill them, this sounds like the devil to me.
And where does it state that Jesus is not coming back?
While we are here let us have a look at the embryology miracle in the quran
These are the verses in the koran that relate to it : sura 23:12-14
ููููููุฏู ุฎูููููููุง ุงููุฅููุณููู ู
ููู ุณูููููุฉู ู
ููู ุทูููู
ุซูู
ูู ุฌูุนููููููู ููุทูููุฉู ููู ููุฑูุงุฑู ู
ูููููู
ุซูู
ูู ุฎูููููููุง ุงููููุทูููุฉู ุนูููููุฉู ููุฎูููููููุง ุงููุนูููููุฉู ู
ูุถูุบูุฉู ููุฎูููููููุง ุงููู
ูุถูุบูุฉู ุนูุธูู
ูุง ููููุณูููููุง ุงููุนูุธูู
ู ููุญูู
ูุง ุซูู
ูู ุฃููุดูุฃููููู ุฎูููููุง ุกุงุฎูุฑู ููุชูุจูุงุฑููู ุงูููููู ุฃูุญูุณููู ุงููุฎูููููููู
The transliteration:
Walaqad khalaqna al-insana min sulalatin min teenin
Thumma jaAAalnahu nutfatan fee qararin makeenin
Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena
Before dealing with the alledge indepth description of embryology our friend would have us believe these verses deal with, let us take things one at a time, these are some of the translations of those verses:
Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create! Yusuf ali
Verily We created man from a product of wet earth;
Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;
Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! Pickthall
Even in his translation of the alledge miracle our friend says this:
[23] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay
[23] Then We placed him as a sperm into a thing that sojournes and implants
[ 24:15] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers
Notice the word in bold? now you do not need to be an embryologist to realise an extaction of clay has absolutely nothing to do with embryology but it seems our friend is so certain of a miracle in the koran he is unable to see this.
Al-Mu'jam Al-Waseet [The Dictionary]
Volume One
Page 105
Translation
(Thumma [Then]): A letter of Atf [an Arabic grammatical classification] indicating sequence [in order] with a pause in time [between the two things in the sequence], like in the Most Exalted's [Allah's] saying: {He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay. And *Thumma* made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised: But *Thumma* He fashioned him in due proportion and breathed into him something of His spirit} [Yusuf Ali, in reference to Quran verses 32:7-9].
Phrases between normal () parentheses are in the original text, while the ones between square [] brackets are mine.
As you see, Thumma (then) definitely means a sequence in order. http://answering-islam.org.uk/Arabic/Di ... humma.html
Notice the word thumma in the arabic and it's occurence immediately after clay/extaction of clay/wet earth. Notice how many times it occurs in those verses in the original arabic to denote sequence.
I have already showed this logical fallacy to him but he then chose to omit the opening verse when purporting his alledge miracle.
Without even analysing the rest of the verses, this uttering is clearly not divine, and not a miracle.
Quote:
But there is no dispute the thoughts of allah are those of Mohammed in fact there is no diffference between the two; when Mohammed needs to rape allah sanctions it, when Mohammed needs to have sex with his slave girls without paying them dowry allah sanctions it, when Mohammed needs to steal his son's wife allah sanctions it and says he saw Moahmmed's lust and made him give her up to him imagine that a god that sanctioned lust for his prophet when the God of the previous revelation punished David for such a thing.
Thats what you believe.
Would you like to show me which other prophet in the whole of christianity or judaism has edicts that says don't raise your voice when you speak to me, leave my house after having a meal and don't make small chat cause such things annoy the prophet and he is afraid to tell you but allah is not!!! Show me one prophet in the whole of christianity or judaism that has the nerve to utter such dribble and have his followers treat it as sacred scripture to be recited for all times with another lie that there is a copy of the same dribble in heaven.
No this is what the koran and the hadiths indicate, every single uttering was to benefit Mohammed, to soothe his melagomania of an ego the world is created for him, 5% of booty is designated for him, his incestual relationships have been sanctioned by allah, the whole koran is literred with his sexual promiscuity being sanctioned by allah, this is an insult to the true God.
Show us where in the Quran that it INDICATED this that you are alledging ? Also the 5% booty that you are talking about, after receiving such a thing in such little amount what did he do with it thereon after? What does the hadiths that you soo much favor say. Also when Abraham, Moses, David, and Soloman went into wars didnt they obtain booty? Also how many wives did Abraham, Moses, and especially David and Soloman have ? According to you isnt this an insult to the true God also ?
"Then, when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her We joined her in marriage to thee, in order that there might be no difficulty to the believers in marriage to wives of their adopted sons." Surah 33:37
O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity. sura 33:53
When Hafsa caught Mohammed, in her bed, making love to his concubine Mariya (after telling her that her father wanted to see her so she would leave the house), Mohammed tried to please angry Hafsa by promising her that he will stay away from Mariya. At this point Allah intervenes in Mohammed's behalf: -
"O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives ? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.." Surah 66:1 Forgiving of what? Merciful of what?
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise. sura 66:2
When Hafsah told Aisha naturally they caused a scene and lo and behold allah came to the rescue after yet another epileptic fit :
If the two of you repent to GOD [ Ohhh I see confronting your adulterous husband is now a sin you have comitted against God?], then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then GOD is his ally, and so is Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the angels are his helpers. sura 66:4 It looks like allah and jibreel have nothing better to do than to get their prophet out of sex scandals.
The more I read this stupidity the more stupified I get, aren't the 1.6 billion muslims reading the same drivel or are they not allowed to read and interpret their own scriptures and see the con for themselves?
Wait a minute do you not see the commentary, the conversation in the koran was about jews talking to Mary, the jews were the one calling Mary "sister of Aaron", where is this idiom in judaism?
Wait a minute did you not see the commentary and conversation of other people in the Quran that used the same like Idiom ?
Let me explain it again:
At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), They said: "O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! "O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!" -- Sura 19:27-28
Let us start in little steps:
Would you like to tell us who her people in that verse is referring to?
Do you see the commentary?
Her people are the one making the statement: "Oh sister of Aaron" Since you claim to be jewish and claim that this is a jewish idiom, would you like to show us where this idiom is found, what are you scared of? If it exists show us if not you are a liar.
George Sale in his translation of the Qur'an says:
From the identity of names it has been generally imagined by Christian writers that the Koran here confounds Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary of Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron; which intolerable anachronism, if it were certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this book. But though Mohammed may be supposed to have been ignorant enough in ancient history and chronology, to have committed so gross a blunder; yet I do not see how it can be made out from the words of the Koran. For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same whereby it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages. And the commentators accordingly fail not to tell us, that there had passed about one thousand eight hundred years between Amran the father of Moses and Amrean the father of the Virgin Mary: they also make them the sons of different persons; the first, they say, was the son of Yeshar, or Izhar (though he was really his brother) the son of Kahath, the son of Levi; and the other was the son of Matthan, whose genealogy they trace, but in a very corrupt and imperfect manner, up to David and thence to Adam. It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses.
George Sales, is an Orientalist who translated the Quran he him self recognized the statement "O Sister of Aaron" in Arabic by the Jews to Maryam as an Idiom and not of literary content. And again, Maryam in the Quran was the only child of Aaron and his wife which is contrary to Amram and his family in the old testament Bible. Your lack of understanding is that the Arabic is far more vast than what is being renedered in English.
He called Mary the literal "sister of Aaron". To cover
his mistake, Muhammad went from one
mistake to a lie and so on.
Let me re-quote Sale's words: "...which intolerable anachronism, if it were
certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this
book."
I agree with Sale's statement. The evidence shows that Muhammad meant Mary was
Aaron's literal sister. The Quran fails the test of being "revelation" from
God, and Muhammad's error destroys the claimed authority of the Quran.
Jesus said that in the last days, there would be false prophets who would arise
and deceive many:
"For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and
omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you
beforehand." Matthew 24:24, NRSV.
Muhammad even lied to his own followers, and Muhammad has deceived many from
the life of Christ.
Jesus said that a time would come when people would murder Christians and think
they are doing God's will:
"...Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing s they are offering worship to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father or me." John 16:2, 3 NRSV
From the days of Muhammad until even now, Muslims murder ex-Muslims who leave
Islam and become Christian. Jesus said Satan was a murderer from the beginning,
(John 8:44). The violent demonic spirit that possessed Muhammad in the cave of
Hira, also taught Muhammad it was okay to lie and murder others. Muhammad
passed this evil teaching down in Islam.
Jesus came to bring life not death - "I have come that they may have life and
have it abundantly." John 10:10. Jesus is more than a book, He is the Way, the
Truth, and the Life.
Since you claim to be jewish, and you as you claim above that this is jewish idiom show us where in the whole of Judaism this idiom exists, you can't run away and say we muslims understand "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the aaronites or other such nonsense, when the alledge conversation in the koran and in that sahih muslim hadith was jews talking to Mary unless those jews are talking about understanding "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the Aaronites you are looking at a blatant lie, error and contradiction in your koran and hadiths, now show us since you claim to be jewish where this idiom is found, If you are unable to show us this idiom in judaism you are a liar like your prophet
Yea Yea ! I been through this already with the Talmud, when I produced the proof willingly a back flip was done using it against us as proof Muhammad copied from the Jewish Talmud also.
Then show us the proof again, if you are scared of plagiarism the readers will judge for themselves, then again it is nothing new about the koran, you have zoroastrianism, persian, christian and jewish apocryphal books plagiarised in there, so what is one more plagiarism from the talmud, show us the idiom pls.
I dont know why you keep making up these wishful thinking allegations, but the Haneefs (Hanifs) were Anti Idolorty just like the Jews and Christians in Arabia of Muhammads time and before.
This is strange you are basically trying to tell us, Abraham spread monotheism to arabia where he circumnavigated that stone with Ishmael his first born son (since you claim to be jewish what happened to Isaac and the jews? how do they fit in? what were they doing in egypt why were they rescued from egypt even your koran states that God was with the jews you are now telling us the arabs always had the true message of God and the jews were never the promised people, but the arabs had it all along?
Quote:
Would you like to tell us when this sura was revealed? (There is a reason for this question but I suspect it will be lost on you)
Quote:
Your the Islamic expert why dont you know this ?
Is this your way of telling me you don't know?
Rememer Aisha was with Mohammed for over 10 years before his death half of those suras were in mecca and the other half in medina, again I ask you do you know when that sura was revealed?
Go to the Abdullah Yusaf Ali's translation of the Quran and he gives the date of the Surah. Its the preface notes and introduction to Surat Annisaa on line 2 you cant miss it with the Hijra date. I want you to go look so while your at it you can read the rest of the Quran. I know exactly what you going to pull out of the rabbit's hat with this one. But I wanna enjoy this though, you think you got a trumph card and I know how your going to play it, but I want you to work hard for it though. (SMILE)
Since you know what I am going to pull out, then maybe you should have prepared your answer in anticipation:
It was revealed in the fourth year he was in medina, between 625-626 AD (http://isgkc.org/EnglishQuran/sura4.htm). He deid in 632-633 AD 7 years later. Aisha was with him for ten years, in other words typical of Mohammed by the time the koran said marry women (which our friend has conveniently taken to mean women who have passed the age of puberty, and there are many different schools of thought on this, his view is a very small minority) Mohammed was already with a pre pubescent girl, a case of one rule for me and another rule for my followers the mantra of all cults.
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