Quote:
Zacheriah was the father of Elizabeth ? Wow!! you want to study islam but you dont even know your own Bible. Lets see what the Bible says.
It seems you have no idea what I am trying to do, why all of a sudden do you rush off to the bible as the authority when you believe you have spotted a mistake? so you agree the bible is the authority, if it is the authority what business does Amram have being the father of Moses, Aaron, and Mary the mother of Jesus in the koran?
I was trying to show you a logical fallacy in your thinking, notice the statement at the end "according to you" Mary was put into the care of Zechariah, which makes him her guardian, therefore her uncle, therefore her as his daughter (for her to qualify as a sister of Aaron) which equally makes Elizabeth his daughter since they are cousins, but the point was lost on you so you scream go back to sunday school.
V.S.
[quote/This is strange, you have been to sunday school? So you have been a jew, a muslim and been to sunday school?. I will more than happily admit I made an error rather than claim I know it all, the difference between me and you is your error damns your beliefs, if that idiom doesn't exist the koran is a lie if the koran is a lie the koranic god is not the true God, you are headed for hell.
Which is it ? You were trying to do something but yet you made grave error while trying to formulate this. But Anyhow, anyway you look at it, in your gross error or not, Maryam is still an Aaronite which makes Jesus also an Aaronite and not a descendant of David being that Jospeh was not his biological father.
Where is your translation of the koran, since everybody made such a terrible job.
Stay tuned for a translation near you
Who are you trying to fool here, your translations are ambiguous to mean whatever you want it to imply, this is an age old trick, the same trick that says the koran mentions pace-makers, and has predicted the splitting of the moon in 1969.
Let the people decide that, when since do you think for others. As for the splitting of the Moon, again you have not acquinted your self with islamic mudzhab. Some believe the splitting of the moon already occured, another believes that is will be the final sign for the distruction of the earth when the universe starts to contract. It seems you are following sunni and salafi madzhab but again you need to research all the madzhab and criticize all and not one as you take as being the final authoritive in islam.
You are now going to lecture us all on which verses support the trinity? Are you telling us christians who use the NIV do not believe in the trinity?
My opinion on this is that the majority of the Christians that reject the trinity do favor the NIV over the KJV. The NIV is more informative as to the texts and manuscripts. Please read the preface to the NIV they them selves criticize the KJV of its grave Errors in translation but also the NIV has also been convicted of the same thing
http://www.geocities.com/kjvdispensational/ http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html http://www.considerthis.net/Textfile/kjv-errors.htm http://www.bibletexts.com/topics/kjv.htm http://www.asapnet.net/remnant/page5isKJVonly.htm http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume1/tr.htm http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm
Hope you enjoy reading all those sites between Christians and their disputes about the translators of the different versions of the Bible which is G-D's word and not. As again I am like them to the fact we undertand the original language the scripture was revealed in and realize the hard task involved in translations which are subject to error. The Christian Bible has the same problems of translation errors like that of Quran English translations. That why we say if you wanna Criticize islam or find flaw in it you will have to learn Arabic to do so. And from there is the real debate. A person in your shoes have no Idea if what you are criticizing if it is and translators error or not.
Yes indeed but allah's thoughts are curiously like Mohammed's and no other, right down to washing your nostrils, trimming your beard, and creating Adam after the afternoon prayer.
Yes indeed islam is a beautiful way of life, with such high gene. No religion in the words goes in to such dept and vast topics that "TEACH YOU ALL THINGS".
Quote:
Obviously you know nothing of islam. Not all muslims BELIEVE in a second coming of Jesus. As a matter of fact the Quran REJECTS such a second coming. If the Hadith that mentions the second coming of Jesus is taken literally then it would contradict the Quran as the Quran makes it very clear he will not be seen again until the Day of Judgement.
...When Jesus was raised up to Allah in the Heaven he became DECEASED (mutawafan). There is no second return in which he will only appear for the second time on the Day of Judgment after the physical resurrection of all mankind.
Where does the koran explicitly state this?
Ok lets try it again:
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:156-157)
[On the Day of Judgement Jesus will say] I did not say to them (the Jews and my followers) but what you commanded me to say that "Worship Allah (In Aramaic Aalah) my Lord and your Lord" and I was a witness over them (the Jews) when I dwelt among them whereas you caused me to decease (ref. 3:54-55) you were the watcher over them and you are a witness over everything (5:116-118)
Lets put it in Arabic maybe then you would understand better:
3:ููู
ูููุฑููุงู ููู
ูููุฑู ุงููููู ููุงููููู ุฎูููุฑู ุงููู
ูุงููุฑูููู (54)
ุฅูุฐู ููุงูู ุงููููู ููุง ุนููุณูู ุฅููููู ู
ูุชููููููููู ููุฑูุงููุนููู ุฅูููููู ููู
ูุทููููุฑููู ู
ููู ุงูููุฐูููู ููููุฑููุงู ููุฌูุงุนููู ุงูููุฐูููู ุงุชููุจูุนูููู ูููููู ุงูููุฐูููู ููููุฑููุงู ุฅูููู ููููู
ู ุงููููููุงู
ูุฉู ุซูู
ูู ุฅูููููู ู
ูุฑูุฌูุนูููู
ู ููุฃูุญูููู
ู ุจูููููููู
ู ูููู
ูุง ูููุชูู
ู ููููู ุชูุฎูุชูููููููู (55)
4:ููุจูููููุฑูููู
ู ููููููููููู
ู ุนูููู ู
ูุฑูููู
ู ุจูููุชูุงููุง ุนูุธููู
ูุง (156)
ููููููููููู
ู ุฅููููุง ููุชูููููุง ุงููู
ูุณููุญู ุนููุณูู ุงุจููู ู
ูุฑูููู
ู ุฑูุณูููู ุงููููู ููู
ูุง ููุชูููููู ููู
ูุง ุตูููุจูููู ููููููู ุดูุจูููู ููููู
ู ููุฅูููู ุงูููุฐูููู ุงุฎูุชููููููุงู ููููู ููููู ุดูููู ู
ูููููู ู
ูุง ููููู
ุจููู ู
ููู ุนูููู
ู ุฅููุงูู ุงุชููุจูุงุนู ุงูุธููููู ููู
ูุง ููุชูููููู ูููููููุง (157)
ููุฅูุฐู ููุงูู ุงููููู ููุง ุนููุณูู ุงุจููู ู
ูุฑูููู
ู ุฃูุฃููุชู ูููุชู ููููููุงุณู ุงุชููุฎูุฐููููู ููุฃูู
ูููู ุฅููููููููู ู
ูู ุฏูููู ุงููููู ููุงูู ุณูุจูุญูุงูููู ู
ูุง ููููููู ููู ุฃููู ุฃูููููู ู
ูุง ููููุณู ููู ุจูุญูููู ุฅูู ูููุชู ููููุชููู ููููุฏู ุนูููู
ูุชููู ุชูุนูููู
ู ู
ูุง ููู ููููุณูู ูููุงู ุฃูุนูููู
ู ู
ูุง ููู ููููุณููู ุฅูููููู ุฃููุชู ุนููุงููู
ู ุงููุบููููุจู (5:116)
ู
ูุง ููููุชู ููููู
ู ุฅููุงูู ู
ูุง ุฃูู
ูุฑูุชูููู ุจููู ุฃููู ุงุนูุจูุฏููุงู ุงููููู ุฑูุจููู ููุฑูุจููููู
ู ูููููุชู ุนูููููููู
ู ุดููููุฏูุง ู
ููุง ุฏูู
ูุชู ูููููู
ู ููููู
ููุง ุชููููููููุชูููู ูููุชู ุฃููุชู ุงูุฑูููููุจู ุนูููููููู
ู ููุฃููุชู ุนูููู ููููู ุดูููุกู ุดููููุฏู (117)
ุฅูู ุชูุนูุฐููุจูููู
ู ููุฅููููููู
ู ุนูุจูุงุฏููู ููุฅูู ุชูุบูููุฑู ููููู
ู ููุฅูููููู ุฃููุชู ุงููุนูุฒููุฒู ุงููุญููููู
ู (118)
Quote:
But there is no dispute the thoughts of allah are those of Mohammed in fact there is no diffference between the two; when Mohammed needs to rape allah sanctions it, when Mohammed needs to have sex with his slave girls without paying them dowry allah sanctions it, when Mohammed needs to steal his son's wife allah sanctions it and says he saw Moahmmed's lust and made him give her up to him imagine that a god that sanctioned lust for his prophet when the God of the previous revelation punished David for such a thing.
Quote:
Thats what you believe.
No this is what the koran and the hadiths indicate, every single uttering was to benefit Mohammed, to soothe his melagomania of an ego the world is created for him, 5% of booty is designated for him, his incestual relationships have been sanctioned by allah, the whole koran is literred with his sexual promiscuity being sanctioned by allah, this is an insult to the true God.
Show us where in the Quran that it INDICATED this that you are alledging ? Also the 5% booty that you are talking about, after receiving such a thing in such little amount what did he do with it thereon after? What does the hadiths that you soo much favor say. Also when Abraham, Moses, David, and Soloman went into wars didnt they obtain booty? Also how many wives did Abraham, Moses, and especially David and Soloman have ? According to you isnt this an insult to the true God also ?
Wait a minute do you not see the commentary, the conversation in the koran was about jews talking to Mary, the jews were the one calling Mary "sister of Aaron", where is this idiom in judaism?
Wait a minute did you not see the commentary and conversation of other people in the Quran that used the same like Idiom ?
It seems you have no idea what I am trying to do, why all of a sudden do you rush off to the bible as the authority when you believe you have spotted a mistake?
No actually you brought the bible in to this, not me. You made a challenge to me before, in which I told you I didnt want to get into in the first place. But you kept on interjecting your beliefs of the bible upon the Quran. Maybe you thought I was so much of an imposter former Jew and and Imposter Muslim that I wasnt versed in the new testatment of Bible either.
so you agree the bible is the authority, if it is the authority what business does Amram have being the father of Moses, Aaron, and Mary the mother of Jesus in the koran?
No the Bible is not a source of Authority for us, it is for you. I used it for you to correct your self. Again you said from before to see what the Quran and Hadith have to say only excluding everything else. You seems not to stick to you own words:
1) You never quote Quran but only Hadith
2) Your always interjecting your personal beliefs per the indoctrination of the Bible that concludes to your reason of thought
3) You have barely even studied the sunni/salafi madzhabs to conclude on them, and still there are more Muslim madzhabs to learn. You havent even passed pre-school as yet on this.
I was trying to show you a logical fallacy in your thinking, notice the statement at the end "according to you" Mary was put into the care of Zechariah,
No there wasnt any logical fallacy in our thinking. It is You and your contemporaries lack of understanding the Language. Even a non muslim commented on this. My personal opinion I think its just a Christian grudge about this issue seeking every avenue there is to rip it to shreds :
George Sale in his translation of the Qur'an says:
From the identity of names it has been generally imagined by Christian writers that the Koran here confounds Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary of Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron; which intolerable anachronism, if it were certain, is sufficient of itself to destroy the pretended authority of this book. But though Mohammed may be supposed to have been ignorant enough in ancient history and chronology, to have committed so gross a blunder; yet I do not see how it can be made out from the words of the Koran. For it does not follow, because two persons have the same name, and have each a father and brother who bear the same names, that they must therefore necessarily be the same whereby it manifestly appears that Mohammed well knew and asserted that Moses preceded Jesus several ages. And the commentators accordingly fail not to tell us, that there had passed about one thousand eight hundred years between Amran the father of Moses and Amrean the father of the Virgin Mary: they also make them the sons of different persons; the first, they say, was the son of Yeshar, or Izhar (though he was really his brother) the son of Kahath, the son of Levi; and the other was the son of Matthan, whose genealogy they trace, but in a very corrupt and imperfect manner, up to David and thence to Adam. It must be observed that though the Virgin Mary is called in the Koran, the sister of Aaron, yet she is nowhere called the sister of Moses.
George Sales, is an Orientalist who translated the Quran he him self recognized the statement "O Sister of Aaron" in Arabic by the Jews to Maryam as an Idiom and not of literary content. And again, Maryam in the Quran was the only child of Aaron and his wife which is contrary to Amram and his family in the old testament Bible. Your lack of understanding is that the Arabic is far more vast than what is being renedered in English.
Since you claim to be jewish, and you as you claim above that this is jewish idiom show us where in the whole of Judaism this idiom exists, you can't run away and say we muslims understand "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the aaronites or other such nonsense, when the alledge conversation in the koran and in that sahih muslim hadith was jews talking to Mary unless those jews are talking about understanding "sister of Aaron" as a respected title of her sisterhood of the Aaronites you are looking at a blatant lie, error and contradiction in your koran and hadiths, now show us since you claim to be jewish where this idiom is found, If you are unable to show us this idiom in judaism you are a liar like your prophet
Yea Yea ! I been through this already with the Talmud, when I produced the proof willingly a back flip was done using it against us as proof Muhammad copied from the Jewish Talmud also.
I will more than happily admit I made an error rather than claim I know it all, the difference between me and you is your error damns your beliefs, if that idiom doesn't exist the koran is a lie if the koran is a lie the koranic god is not the true God, you are headed for hell.
People who have read the Quran in Arabic collectively that understands the language all understood it as an Idiom like Goerge Sales did.
"The meccan pagans were the first to call themselves haneefs, I am curious since Mohammed said only one of 70 sects will be allowed into paradise what makes you think it's yours? or maybe that is a fabricated hadith. "
Nope you are wrong the Haneef movement were not pagans, your getting your Ps and Qs mixed up here.
in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, an Arabic designation for true monotheists (especially Abraham) who were not Jews, Christians, or worshipers of idols. The word appears to have been borrowed from a Syriac word meaning โheathenโ and, by extension, designating a Hellenized person of culture. There is no evidence that a true hanif cult existed in pre-Islamic Arabia, but there were certain individuals who, having repudiated the old gods, prepared the way for Islam but embraced neither Judaism nor Christianity. In this sense, some of Muhammad's relatives, contemporaries, and early supporters were called hanifsโe.g., Waraqah ibn Nawfal, a cousin of the Prophet's first wife, Khadijah, and Umayyah ibn Abi as-Salt, an early 7th-century Arab poet.
www.Britannica.com
Hanif
Other Commonly Used Spellings: HANEEF
people who during the time of Jahiliyyah rejected the idolatry in their society. These people were in search for the true religion of Prophet Abraham.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/g ... HANIF.html
"The Meccans were for the most part idolaters worshiping a miscellany of gods and goddesses, and propitiating them with sacrifices. But among the idolatrous Meccans there lived also a certain number of Christians from the oasis of Najran in the south of Arabia, which was an important Christian center whose bishops came to the great Arab fairs to preach. Jewish tribes lived in and near Medina; and some Arabs were hunafa (โupright onesโ), still practicing, as individuals, the monotheism which was the legacy of Abraham. Mohammed had been a hanif, and had sought in his retreats to bring himself closer to the one God, the God of Abraham. Now, through the Prophet, began the restoration or renewal of the primordial religion of Abraham, and of Adam, in which man faced God as the Absolute with the same immediacy and simplicity as he did on the first day of creation."
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030501.htm
The period immediately preceding the time of Muhammad witnessed the rise of a theistic sect known as the Hanifs, a band of earnest reformers who rejected in toto the idolatry of their fellows, and stood for the worship of the one true God alone. The principal of these seekers after truth were Waraqa ibn Naufal, 'Ubaid Ullah, Ibn Jash, 'Uthman ibn al-Huwairith and Zaid ibn 'Amr. A Tradition records that "Zaid adopted this term Hanif at the instance of a Christian and of a Jew who both exhorted him to become a Hanif. Zaid having at the time renounced idolatry, and being unable to receive either Judaism or Christianity said, 'What is a Hanif?' They both told him it was the religion of Abraham who worshipped nothing but God. Upon this Zaid exclaimed, 'O God, I bear witness that I follow the religion of Abraham.'" Ibn Hisham, one of the earliest and most reliable of all the biographers of Muhammad has left in his book "Siratu'r-Rasul"3 an interesting account of the Hanifs in the course of which he tells us that: -
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Golds ... /chap1.htm
Arabia was just far enough to the east to avoid dominance by Rome, though there was frequent contact between the two distinct civilizations. By and large, the population consisted of tribes of bedouin nomads maintaining subsistence living in the desert, occasionally coming together in the distantly scattered cities for trade. In the centers of commerce a number of Jewish communities had established themselves, consisting, for the most part, of the descendants of refugees who had fled the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. In addition, Christian missionaries had also made a significant impact in the area. By the fifth century the entire Arabian province of Najran, located in the southernmost portion of modern Saudi Arabia, at the border of Yemen, had been converted to Christianity. There were scattered settlements of Zoroastrians, as well as an indigenous monotheistic movement that was neither Jewish, nor Christian, nor Parsi, known as the Hanif movement.
http://www.worldhistory1b.homestead.com/ISLAM.html
There were four theistic sects in existence in Arabia before Islam which acknowledged a revelation, and which were prevalent at various times, namely, the Sabians, the Hanifs, the Jews and the Christians."2.................The period immediately preceding the time of Muhammad witnessed the rise of a theistic sect known as the Hanifs, a band of earnest reformers who rejected in toto the idolatry of their fellows, and stood for the worship of the one true God alone. The principal of these seekers after truth were Waraqa ibn Naufal, 'Ubaid Ullah, Ibn Jash, 'Uthman ibn al-Huwairith and Zaid ibn 'Amr. A Tradition records that "Zaid adopted this term Hanif at the instance of a Christian and of a Jew who both exhorted him to become a Hanif. Zaid having at the time renounced idolatry, and being unable to receive either Judaism or Christianity said, 'What is a Hanif?' They both told him it was the religion of Abraham who worshipped nothing but God. Upon this Zaid exclaimed, 'O God, I bear witness that I follow the religion of Abraham.'" Ibn Hisham, one of the earliest and most reliable of all the biographers of Muhammad has left in his book "Siratu'r-Rasul"3 an interesting account of the Hanifs in the course of which he tells us that: -
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Golds ... /chap1.htm
I dont know why you keep making up these wishful thinking allegations, but the Haneefs (Hanifs) were Anti Idolorty just like the Jews and Christians in Arabia of Muhammads time and before.
Quote:
Would you like to tell us when this sura was revealed? (There is a reason for this question but I suspect it will be lost on you)
Quote:
Your the Islamic expert why dont you know this ?
Is this your way of telling me you don't know?
Rememer Aisha was with Mohammed for over 10 years before his death half of those suras were in mecca and the other half in medina, again I ask you do you know when that sura was revealed?
Go to the Abdullah Yusaf Ali's translation of the Quran and he gives the date of the Surah. Its the preface notes and introduction to Surat Annisaa on line 2 you cant miss it with the Hijra date. I want you to go look so while your at it you can read the rest of the Quran. I know exactly what you going to pull out of the rabbit's hat with this one. But I wanna enjoy this though, you think you got a trumph card and I know how your going to play it, but I want you to work hard for it though. (SMILE)