Several questions pop up on reading this statement alone, anybody reading this will be wondering why you are so quick to condemn Jesus (as an imposter and liar) and go back to Judaism if someone can prove to you that embryology as described in the koran is inaccurate (and it is), and in the next breath you call Jesus ["Our beloved Messiah" ] .......
Pay particular attention to the rest of my comment (underlined), I find it fascinating you accepted Jesus as the Messiah once you came to islam, personally I think those statements are oxymorons.
This is is facinating. This was based on the presentation of the Arabic Text of The Quran that was exaustfully explained by us, not by other translators inaccurate works that you kept retreating to who were not fully grounded in the english language.
Us? exactly how many people am I talking to?
Yusuf Ali was educated in the uk, he was sufficiently grounded in the language to know what he was doing, I agree his work was inaccurate but not in the way you imply, he and other english translators knew exactly the people they were translating to, they bent over backwards to make the koran mild, so maakiren instead of cheater vis-a-vis allah is the best of cheaters, allah is now the best of plotters, instead of beat your wives, it is beat(lightly) and many more like it without their interpolations () the koran does not make any sense to the conscience or to a rational mind.
To show flaw in the translators works that you and your contemporaries took advantage of I produced legitimate grounds of why their translations are rejected as an authoritive and credible Tafsir (explanation):
Read above
Rejected by whom?
Exactly what splinter group do you represent?
You were to disprove and show inaccuracy in our Tafsir. This is where the challenge was at. However, your critic sources that you posted was not based on our Tafsir, but based on another translators work that was inaccurate and poor.
Have a look at the original post, I used your tafsir, I found it amusing how you came to such a detailed description of embryology given ..thing that sojourns, clinging thing, flesh on bones.
I am an arabic speaker you cannot debate with with me showing that the Arabic Quran is inaccurate in its discription of human embryology by relying on an english translation. You would have to come from the Arabic text its self with Tafsir in english to show how it is inaccurate, or use the Tafsir we gave you and have an embryologist to find it inaccurate.
If allah cannot pass on his message except via a language 90% of his converts do not speak or do not comprehend, and translations lose their meanings then the last message for all mankind for all eternity is a failure.
All counterfeits will have an ounce of truth, or else the con will never work, feigning respect for Jesus all the while talking about a Mahdi that will come and break the cross is an insult to what Jesus came to do, tell me what is the purpose of Jesus's coming if at the end of it another fellow was going to come, wouldn't it have been better if Jesus didn't bother to come at all, and what on earth was Jesus's message in this phantom injil that has been lost when allah says none of his revelations does he cause to be forgotten?
Obviously you know nothing of islam. Not all muslims BELIEVE in a second coming of Jesus. As a matter of fact the Quran REJECTS such a second coming. If the Hadith that mentions the second coming of Jesus is taken literally then it would contradict the Quran as the Quran makes it very clear he will not be seen again until the Day of Judgement.
Again which splinter group in islam do you represent?
And they (the enemies of Jesus) plotted (to kill him) and Allah to plotted, and Allah is the best of plotters. When Allah said : "O Jesus ! Verily I am causing you to decease (mutawafee) while raising you to my self and purifying you from those who are disbelievers".....(Quran 3:54-55)
Several questions pop up why did the jews want to kill Jesus, what was His crime? why did allah want to raise Jesus up dead? what for? what purpose surely God would do things for a purpose?
and in their (the Jews) disbelief they spoke against Maryam grave false charges, and they said: " Verily we have killed The Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam the Messenger of Allah !" And they (the enemies of Jesus) killed him not nor crucified him but however it appeared to them so. [Why would allah make it appear so, what possible reason?] And verily those who differed there in (that he was not crucified nor killed) were indeed in doubt about it. They had no knowledge about it except that they followed conjecture, and for surety they killed him not, rather Allah raised him up to himself (ref. 3:54-55) and Allah is almighty all wise (Quran 4:157-157)
[Is this a valid reason for all of the above?]
Jesus was a Prophetic Messenger of Allah in Islam, for him to come again after Muhammad would mean there would be another prophet to come after Muhammad which contradicts Quran:
BINGO
Muhammad is not the father of any of you men, but a Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the prophets and Allah is omniscient with everything (Quran 33:40)
I am curious do you believe the
"seal of the prophets" to be a cancerous lump between the shoulder blades?
The Hadith you follow reported by Tabari , Ishaq, Bukhari, and Muslim, if taken literally contradicts Quran. However you should have paid more attention to the Hadith then you would see it is symbolical.
BukhariVolumn 004, Book 055, Hadith Number 657.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler)[ What part in the above statement is figurative?]; he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya ...
" The Pigs" and in some hadith it is singular as "The Pig". What pigs is he going to kill ? There are millions of pigs all over the word. In other Hadiths Jesus is to comback to kill an imposter Messiah called "Al-Masiha Dajjal" and those who follow him.
I see, you are basically saying the followers of the false messiah will be killed, do you realise the followers of the false messiah will be the jews? so you are implying that jews are the pigs being referred to here? as a former jew as you claim I find it truly amazing you would utter such a thing.
and what on earth was Jesus's message in this phantom injil that has been lost when allah says none of his revelations does he cause to be forgotten?
Allah never said such a thing in the Quran to what you are implying :
We do not abrogate any of our revelations or cause it to be forgotten unless We provide something better than it or its like. Do you not know that Allah is omnipotent over everything ? (2:106)
If the revelation is fogotten it is replaced with something better than it or something simular to it.
Do you honestly believe God would utter such a thing, this sounds like what a man would say when he has forgotten the things he was suppose to remember.
...the faults in islam are exposed for all to see translation or otherwise,..
Translations do not give 100% accuracy of the language it is being translated from. It must be aided by Tafsir or Explanation of the text to fully have an understand of the text it self.
Isn't this religion so simple a child can understand it, if the religion can only be understood by elaborate tafsirs which have no prophetic mandate, why should anybody believe them?
It seems my point was lost on you, Mohammed made a mistake, he confused Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam Aaron's sister, regardless of wether the language was amended to make Maryam mean both Miriam and Mary ( which I find a bit strange since this language is so ambiguous you can get anything you want why should two different names mean the same).
The Biblical record says that Amran was Moses', Aaron's, and Miriam's
father (Numbers 26:59). The Quran also gives this name to Mary's father. In Sura 66:12, Mary is identified as the daughter of Imran, but the new testament puts Eli as the father of Mary. So here is a double connection. "Mary" is Aaron's sister, and the daughter of Imran.
There you go again interjecting your beliefs, this again is not about the teachings of Christianity is about Islam. You keep interjecting your Christian belief. As I have said your study of islam is not scientific but passive bias based on a Christian perspective.
Let me remind you of what we said:
Nowhere in the Torah new testament, Talmud, Jewish or christian apocryphal wiritngs is anyone mentioned as a brother or sister of an ancestor
Go to any Jewish website or to an Orthadox Jew, I would recommend a Rabi instead, and email or ask them or him what does "Sister of Aaron" and "Brother of Levi" in Jewish Idiom meain.
I think it is time I call your bluff on this, if it is in there would you care to show us where it is, other christians have already done an extensive search in the quran, hadiths, jewish and christian scriptures and apocrypha no such idiom of naming someone as a sibling of an ancestor has been found except they were real contemporarty siblings the idiom has always been daughter of the ancestor or son of the ancestor, if it is in there don't beat around the bush show us.
You have a brain but cant use it. Maybe because it is too focused on one thing. In the Quran Maryam is "the daughter of Imran" in which she is also called "Sister of Aaron" as you mentioned it.
How many Jesus' are there in the Bible, How many Jews called them selves Moses, Aaron, Miryam, Levi, David, etc.. You make it sound like after all those years that none of the Levite and Aaronite descendants didnt call themself by the name of their forefathers.
I mean you got a whole possie of Marys running around in the new testament. So dont you think the Levites also named them selves after their forfathers ?
Is this your excuse for an explanation?, the term was
"sister of Aaron" yes we can both agree that they named themselves after their ancestors, the question was where in the whole of judaism do they name themselves as a sibling of an ancestor that was not their real life contemporary sibling?
Also you forgot a valuable part of the Quran, Maryam was the only child and daughter of Imran and his wife. After her parents died she was put into the custody of Zakariyya (Zechariah) according to Jewish custom.
I see, according to you Mary was put into the care of Zechariah which makes him her uncle as a guardian and her as his daughter, and since he is a descendant of Aaron this makes her a "sister of aaron" impressive deduction but...your koran states Mary is a literal "sister of harun", when Mohammed was confronted about this lie in the koran he said another lie that..
The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them. The onus is on you to prove that the jews had this idiom, if it is in there spit it out.
Maryam was an Aaronite of the levite tribe
Any christian reading this will seriously start to doubt if you were ever jewish, you remind me of the many muslims I meet who claim to be former christians but are unable to state basic christian tenets.
Where did you get this information from that Mary was a descendant of Aaron?, if Mary was a descendant of Aaron, even your koran would have known better to call her a
"DAUGHTER OF AARON"
Mary was a descendant of Judah not Levi, I ask again are you really jewish?. If you are prepared to perform acrobatics in jewish idioms to deduce that Mary was being looked after by Zechariah which makes him her uncle/guardian and her his daughter therefore she is a "sister of Aaron" I find it perplexing you are unable to deduce what the two genealogies you showed represent, unless you were never jewish.
Look at that genealogy and tell me how many times you see the name Levi, Judah etc..being used for the descendants of that Tribe.
The two genealogies are of Joseph not Mary. Heli (Eli) is not the father of Mary.
You are jewish right?
Do you know which tribe the Messiah was suppose to come from?
In the Quran Maryam was addressed as " Sister of Aaron"
this is Jewish idiom
. The arabic word "ukhti" = "sister" in english have the same multiple meaning... Maryam was an Aaronite, A sister of the Aaronhood. "Sister of Aaron" was her respectable title whom belonged to the sisterhood of the Aaronites
Would you care to cite for us where this jewish idiom is found?
I have already met those arguments before, I am curious are you a believer of
www.submission.org? Why don't you look at it like this
a) Narrated Aisha "..I was 9 years old..." is true
b) The hadith is a lie she was not 9 yrs old but much older as the dates from the battle of badr and Uhud seem to indicate. (at the ripe mature age of 14)
c) Those contradicting dates are also fabrications.
Personally I don't think you have much ground to stand on, first you are dismissing the hadiths that say she was 9 years old, some of it narrated by Aisha herself, second if she was 14 years old at the battle of Uhud she must have been with the prophet beforehand we can speculate how far back she was with him, third wasn't Aisha suppose to have been married at a young age so she can tell us thousands of ahadith? that puts all those hadiths in jeopardy as forgeries do you want to go along that path? Fourth before you convince us convince your imams, they are the ones sanctioning marriage of preteen girls.
Tabari IX:128 When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.
That hadith like many others contradict each others and the Quran. I told you to go do the math. The hadith CONTRADICTS historical time lines an events.
Have you thought maybe the hadiths also contain fabrications of historical time line of events, a fabrication containing more fabrications...it would explain why they contradict each other.
I gave you the facts and evidence that are clean cut and clear on my former post. 2+2 does not equal 6, maybe in Christianity with blind faith, but not in Islam
Your blind faith is the koran is inerrant, and everything must be discarded if it contradicts the koran or if it sheds light on it that shows it is no more divine than the utterings of a demon possessed man.
Personally I believe that hadith is one of many forgeries.
Imagine that. We do to, however we distinguish what is false and true with the Quran. And your statement for it self manifests your motives.
Since those hadiths are all we have on the formation of islam, we can only apply logic on those hadiths, far from contradicting the koran like you would have us all believe they shed light on it. I also believe the koran is a forgery on human and demonic proportions.
Exactly, they contradict Quran. The Quran says to marry "nisaa'a" ~ adult women who are pass puberty. We do not believe Muhammad married Aisha until after the age of puberty. As for what other muslims believe in ? Its a matter of blind faith for them.
Would you care to point us to where it says alnissa means adult women who have passed puberty?
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication [zina] flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. (Quran 24:2)"
We have this command in the Quran but still some muslim countries still practice stoning when it is not supported in the Quran but can only be found in hadith that contradicts Quran
The hadiths say the quranic verse on stoning was abrogated by a goat, read into it what you will.
I would like to remind you what Jesus said:
"For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand." Matt 24:24 If this is not a prophecy about Mohammed I don't know what is.