Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilah
"We have killed the soul prohibited by Allah, invoked another god along with Allah for worship" I find it implausible you would believe this equates invoking another god as a mediator to get to allah, any logical individual can see that that verse is not that explicit, you are assuming the conclusion that the verse means that you own personal bias to get to the conclusion that the polytheists were usng mediators to get to allah ( the rules of the arabic language you use to translate any given quranic verse to the likeness of your choice won't work here). When the more logical explanation and supported by the early hadiths were that they served several gods, including allah. When was the last time you as a pagan did something and were happy to declare "I have committed that which is shameful" This type of logical fallicies pertrudes throughout the hadths of Bukhari Muslim, Abu Dawod and Malik, ridiculous commentaries to esteem islam amongst the 'barbaric' polytheists/jews. Remember our friend Abd Allah ibn Salam the jew who asked Mohammed three things to confirm that he was a prophet? This is what he had to say according to Ishaq and Tabari: “‘If they learn I’ve become a Muslim, they’ll utter slanderous lies against me.’ So the prophet gave me a house, and when the Jews came, I emerged and said, ‘O Jews, fear Allah and accept what He has sent you. For you know that he is the Apostle of Allah. You will find him described in your Torah and even named.’ They accused me of lying and reviled me. I told Muhammad, ‘The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people.’” I find it improbable anyone but a diehard islamic fundamentalist can believe a word of this hadith, number one apostle was strictly a christian idea, the jews didn't evangelise, if Abd Allah ibn Salam really was a jew and really did exist surely he could have cited one passage where Mohammed is named in the Torah, no jewish scholar for the last 1400+ yrs has found Mohammed mentioned in the Torah. Look at how vile and quick to ridicule and demonise his own people this Abd Allah ibn Salam is all the while asking for a house. Tabari VII:29 “When Abu Sufyan heard that Muhammad’s Companions were on their way to intercept his caravan, he sent a message to the Quraysh. ‘Muhammad is going to intercept our caravan, so protect your merchandise.’ When the Quraysh heard this, the people of Mecca hastened to defend their property and protect their men as they were told Muhammad was lying in wait for them.” Ishaq:290 “Some of the Meccans got up to circumambulate the Ka’aba…. Sitting around the mosque, they wondered why they had allowed this evil rascal to attack their men.” Mohammed conducted some 80+ raids ( for booty) against the pagan businessmen without reply, the early hadiths conducted by Ishaq and Tabari does not demonise the pagan caravan merchants at all, it is what any reasonable individual would do defend their property and bring the crook to justice. Let me remind you what I said on the very first post to you: The early hadiths of Ishaq Tabari show the polytheists to be actually more honourable than Mohammed and his despots for hire. And I stressed to you that Mohammed emphasised that allah does not reside in an idol as the pagans believed, but he is everywhere in lieu with the beliefs of the jews and christians.
Let us be clear on this, Ishaq completed his Siratrasullah circa 750AD over 100 years after the death of Mohammed, he is the earliest and first of the islamic historians, all the subsequent hadith narrators borrow from him, Bukhari ( Bukhari completed his work over two centuries after the death of Mohammed http://www.sabawoon.com/library/Hadith/ ... efault.asp, circa 850AD) and Muslim included, Ishaq's Siratrasullah and Tabari's ( Done between 870 and 920 A.D) history of islam are laid in chronological order, the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim are not in chronological order they are to do with rules and regulations, shariah if you like, it is no surprise if they focus on certain paths of a hadith and omit others. I did not interpolate words into that hadith , as I said to you from the very beginning I am quoting from www.prophetofdoom.net purely for the sunnah material using Al Tabari translation by the New York University Press over a period of 10 years. I have tried not to include the author's personal view of islam but mine. Coincidentally Ishaq's biography was lost but his student Hisham made an edition of his biography ( in 830 AD) and he said and I paraphrase from memory "I am editing that which is shameful", however Tabari's history quotes the original Ishaq's biography, what makes you think the hadiths of Muslim are not quoting from the edited biography?
It does not say this, The commentary became a standard from which later commentators drew., rather it says the reverse of what you are trying to imply, please read my post above. I didn't lie or interpolate my own meanings into that hadith that hadith is on www.prophetofdoom.net which I encourage everybody, to read purely for the sunnah material alone that is unavailable to many muslims who do not speak or read arabic to know the foundations of their religion. There are several questions you have not answered which tells me you are not entirely sure of your beliefs, avoiding them is not the answer, and since you appear to be fluent in arabic you cannot take those questions to a scholar and ask for their interpretion when the answer and your conscience will defeat the purpose of your fluency in arabic. From our conversation it seems to me you base your entire belief in islam from the stages of embryology it mentions, I also noticed you chose not to respond to my comments on it, basing your entire belief system on a few lines on a 7th century recital tells me your beliefs are not that firmly established, in my humble opinion. Mohammed was a smart man for his age period on that there is no doubt but today's standards Mohammed is found wanting, if any of the apostles had declared that they deserved a fifth of booty, or indeed sanctioned booty, the hacking of arms and limbs for minor offences and the demonisation of entire ethnic groups and then declared this is divine revelation, millions would never have embraced christianity, they would have been laughed to scorn for their selfish motivations disguised as coming from God ( which is precisely what the pagans and jews did to Mohammed hence the hatred, vitriol and eternal doom for them on the pages of your koran). A message of love, a relationship between a loving father and son is more palatable as coming from the Divine than "we are fuel for hell" predestined by the pen to our own dooms and jubilations . You also seem to focus on the poetic aspects of the koran, as if it is divine on this as well, I don't need to remind you of the sahih hadiths that says that Mohammed hated poets, he wanted to commit suicide because he thought he had become a poet that tells us Mohammed was not unique, Hassan Bin Thabbit his contemporary was also a poet and himself admitted to have obtained his poetic powers by 'possession' by a jinn, but for some strange reason Mohammed then claims his poetic utterings are proof of his divine calling, his one and only 'miracle' I know they are hadiths that say he split the moon, made water come forth for washing (ablution) (which coincidentally islam teaches as you wash your sins are washed away, Judiasm or christianity never teaches this, was this part of the divine mandate that got corrupted successively?). I notice you never quoted any of these as a source of his miracles, I wonder if you believe them too? I noticed you mentioned the numerical miracles in the koran, I have to ask you if all jewish writings have this numerical number of 19 or alludes to this number as being from the Divine or a symbol of the Divine? why don't you ask a simple logical question for the 1300+ yrs of the quranic existence how come it is now that the miracle is dawning on us, how about the muslims for the 1300 years surely one of them would have figured out that there is this numerical miracle in the koran why recently did allah have to wait to expose the alledge miracle to us via aid of a computer what about the muslims that didn't have access to a computer for the previous centuries of islam didn't they deserve to know?, what makes you so sure that this alledge mathematical miracle would not show up in any other book in their native language, the works of Shakespeare, Josephus, Galen, Epic of gilgamesh e.t.c. Here is a numerical 'miracle' there are 6,666 verses in the koran, to a christian the 'miracle' is very symbolic indeed. [/quote] Mohammed would utter sound bites like these thoughout the koran, when the pagans and jews laughed at him that he was using plagiarised material from "the ancients" he would say they didn't know anything, when almost every ritual of islam could be traced to it's superstitious and paganistic roots. Islam fails on many levels, by christianity's standards it is demonic, on humanistic standards it is immoral. You accuse me of using hadith that contradict the quran to disprove islam but do they really contradict islam? where do they contradict the koran, you are prepared to use those hadiths to justify a case, but what about the hadiths that show Mohammed in a terrible light are they to be blanked out like they don't exist, we cannot pick what parts of a religion we believe when the authorities use those same laws we in the liberal west chose to ignore to inflict injustices on our fellow man in the name of "shariah law". Like I said from the beginning we can only judge a religion by our logic and what it's scriptures say. |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame