H2O wrote:What is this Tahannuth worship?, so Mohammed goes to a cave to practice this tahannuth worship and goes back to his pagan wife to obtain provisions to go back to this cave for a like period, am I to believe his pagan wife is giving him provisions to go retreat himself in a cave and worship the one true God?
You didnt prove anything here. It was already explained from islamic doctrine that the pagan worshiped idols in association with Allah. "Tahannuth" Do you know what this word means ? It is to withdraw to seclusion in the cause of religous purification, which is indeed and act of worship. Muhammad did withdraw to the cave on Mount Hira in the mountain to worship Allah. This is not a pagan pratice exclusively, Christian monks or Monophisite Christians did the same and the Essenes.
Now tell me If Allah is Hubal how could he go to Mount Hira in a cave for a month to worship Allah which is three miles north of Makka and that took 4 hours to climb when Hubal was in the Ka'abah in Makkah ?
Tabari VI:67: “The Prophet said, ‘I had been standing, but fell to my knees; and crawled away, my shoulders trembling. I went to Khadija and said, ‘Wrap me up! When the terror had left me, he came to me and said, ‘Muhammad, you are the Messenger of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘I had been thinking of hurling myself down from a mountain crag, but he appeared to me as I was thinking about this and said, ‘I am Gabriel and you are the Messenger.’ Then he said, Recite!’ I said, ‘What shall I recite?’ He took me and pressed me three times. ‘I fear for my life.’ She said, ‘Rejoice, for Allah will never put you to shame.”
I would like you to focus on the quote in bold, this is from Khadijah Mohammed's first wife a notable pagan, what does she mean by this? is she worshipping the one true God as a pagan!?
Just like the first one, your quote doesnt prove a thing. We already pointed out the fact from doctrine that the pagans worshiped the Idols as Intercessors with Allah. The Quotes on [ ] are interpolations, must be yours. All that assaulting has nothing to do with the topic.
As was the custom of the pagan Quraysh as noted in this hadith they would practice ramadan, and "Tahannuth worship" in seclusion in a cave all the while calling the name of allah, Mohammed was simply a pagan, he even incorporated the paganistic rites of walking around the ka'ba 7 times, and had the nerve to justify it by claiming this is the religion of Abraham, that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the prophets all circumnavigated and kissed that abomination you call a black stone, how do you justify this?
You are mixing your christian perspective here. Who cares what you think, what does the doctrine say ? This has nothing to do with what you believe and that is what you are introducing "..
Mohammed was simply a pagan, he even incorporated the paganistic rites of walking around the ka'ba 7 times, and had the nerve to justify it by claiming this is the religion of Abraham, that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, .." You just cant keep you own personal vandata out of this. You believed this before you even got a whole of Hadith. It is common that if you are not a Christian then you are automatically a PAGAN.
This is from a verse in the koran written after the facts with the intention of aligning the god of the koran with the God of the bible, it is nothing major, more like a haphazard attempt to deflect focus, the hadiths indicate otherwise, where is the evidence in the hadiths that the pagans were using their idols as mediators to get to allah?
According to who ? Where is this comming from ? Again this is your own conjecture, your wishful thinking. Where is the proof ? we dont wanna here YAP YAP YAP ! Show some proof of this .
Remember what we agreed on scriptures and our God given logic, I am using your sunnah in that process, if indeed there is a conflict between the sunnah and the quran I would rather use my God given logic to decipher what is the more logical story.
No you are not. You are using hadith and you own unbias perspective in the light of Christianity. you have a habit of throwing sucker punches. You go off an attack another part of islam that doesnt have nothing to do with the topic.
Again read my post above, and please I would like to see your evidence the jews prayed to Yahweh through baal
I read your post. I disagree with you interpretation. Now you asking me to do something I dont want to do, but since you asked then sure:
Jeremiah 31:31-32:
"Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was husband (hebrew ~ Baal) unto them, saith Yahweh."
Please go back to your bible, get a concordance to get its Lexical # and then GO to a lexicon. Now why were christians translators trying to hide this by translating Baal in Hebrew as Husband ? Well to behonest. The Word Baal just doesnt only mean lord but its expresses to be married. I know what the hebrew says in my Tanakh. In the Hebrew the word Baal is not a common noun ending in tanween or that is to say a grammatical mark indicating the noun as being indefinite, it is a Proper noun refering to the pagan god BAAL.
The Verse above is explaining a particular history of the Jews of what they did after they broke their covenant they associated Baal with Yhwh. It is undisputed that they worshiped Baal. Our dispute is if they associated Baal with Yhwh. Note: A concordance is NOT a lexicon.
How can you 'purify' a religion from paganistic practices by still incorporating those paganistic practices?
Well the Jews after following the way of the heathen, their religion was REFORMED, mostly by the Sanhedrin after they reuturned from Babylon in which Christianity centuries later emerged from.
The difference being the religion was not 'purified' by making sacred pilgrimages to the idol sanctuaries the idol temples were destroyed and they were brought back to the worship of Yahweh without any pagan rituals, pilgrimages or lascivious rites.
Again this is your perspective. Your taking what you want out of the religion to claim it as pagan derived. Remember you dont believe whatsoever about anything of the religion having any ties to Abraham.
You are still on this issue when we have shown from doctrine about the history of the religion that is traced to Abraham from islamic doctrine. You want to use what you want out of the doctrine of islam but ignoring the other crucial evidence of Quranic versus that explain the descent of the religion.
There is no evidence Abraham Isaac or Jacob set foot anywhere near that black stone, there is no evidence it came from heaven, and there is no evidence it turned black because of menstruating women.
How did Isaac and Jacob get into this ? THe Quran only speaks of Abraham and Ishmael in connection with the Ka'abah this shows how much you dont know and you have never read the Quran before. By the way what evidence are you talking about ? I hope you are not talking about evidence out side islam teaching cause you would be reneging on what you said cause the only evidence we are going by is that which in islamic teachings. I guess the only evidence you are talking about is evidence out side Islam. YOu have a big problem sticking to what you said in the begining.
Also when I made the Quotes from those other writers it was that they understood the hadith the way I understood it to confirm that I was not interpolating, and also they recognized the same versus in Quran the as making a distinction that Alla is nto and Idol. I didnt want to quote a muslim source cause then it could be said to be biased so I quoted enemies of islam.
I quoted them on the bases that we agreed on one particular issue even though they were critics.
I believe there are lies in the koran, lies in the hadiths too, fabricated commentaries, conversations e.t.c, like Abraham calling himself a muslim, and Jesus speaking to His mother in the womb and commanding dates and water to come forth. Where are the hadith references that state that the Quraish believed this?, you have just the word of the koran alone but ofcourse you are looking at it from the perception that it is the word of God and perfect. Mohammed was the son of a caravan merchant and a politician I would give him that much, he first said the high flying cranes which were the daughters of allah were to be consulted, this was to appeal to the pagan section of his community to get them to accept islam
Exactly what I was talking about. Being that you look at islam as false, also means that you are not going to follow our chain of authority in Doctrine. So you will pick and choose what you want that you see fit you can use against us. Part of the islamic teaching is that the Quran supersedes hadith that you keep quoting. Also if the Hadith contradicts Quran or a particular INTERPRETATION that conflicts with QUran then it is also rejected as being a part of islamic Orthodaxical Teaching. Just like the Apocrypha Gospels. IF they contradict the Cannon versions they are rejected and not considered a part of the teaching of Chrisitianity.
The Quran is the supreme authority, not the Hadith. You will have to come from Quran to prove you allegation cause it is the supreme authority in islam this is part of the islamic teaching. By you rejecting this then you are not following your own words :
You know it becomes pointless if all anybody does is quote and plagiarise what academics have to say on a matter, what about their own God given logic when applied to their scruptures? what exactly does the holy books have to say, what does the quran and sunnah have to say this should take precedence over any apologetic material.
"..
what does the quran and sunnah.." You showed nothing from Quran. You only Quoted hadith. Hadith in islam are not divine and they are not the words of Allah. Only the Quran is the word of Allah :
[3] Alif Lam Mim.
[3] Allah! there is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
[3] It is He Who sent down to thee (Muhammad), in truth, the Book, truth verify for whatever is before it; and He sent down the Torah (of Musa) and the Injeel (Gospel) [
If the Quran authenticates something as false then it is rejected which is not recognised as a teaching of islam. This is islamic teaching you did not follow. You made up your own rules of authority and interpretation.
Quote:
[37:125-126] "Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators Allah your Lord and Cherisher and the Lord and Cherisher of your fathers of old?"
Sorry the lord and cherisher of their fathers of old was the moon god hubal. Need I remind of Mohammed's grandfather's prayer to the moon god for help against Abrah's army?
You amaze me. Ok lets see what else the Quran says Allah being LORD of :
[1] Praise be to Allah, the Lord and Cherisher of all worlds
[114] Say(Muhammad): I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
So lets see here according to your form of thinking then Allah then must be Jesus, Yhwh, and whatever else mankind worships? Ma'aadzallah ! The statement is a statement of demand, and reality of whom mankind's Lord is even if they accept it or not.
Let us have a look at this 'miracle' in embryonal description already well known in Mohammed's time
Clay : Sura 15:26 (Al-Hijr (Stoneland, Rock City)) "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;" Hardly an original creation story. From the pre-bible Epic Of Gilgamesh (I:101-104)
"The Goddess Aruru, she washed her hands, took a pinch of clay, threw it down in the wild. In the wild she created Endiku, the hero, offspring of silence, knit strong by Ninurta.". A much better story, too.
Water > Sura 25:54 (The Criterion (The Standard)) "It is He Who has created man from water: ... "
Hardly original a woman breaking her water during child birth could easily cause a superstitious and unlearned individual to believe people came from water.
Dust > Sura 30:20 (The Romans (The Byzantines)) "Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; ... "
The bible was already in circulation another case of plagiarism
Blood > Sura 96:2 (The Clot (Read!)) "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:"
With Mohammed's alledge 9 wives and umpteen concubines he would have seen lots of miscarriages, the only time a foetus looks like congealed blood!.
Your standard islamic response to this 'miracle' is to claim it is one thing and another, separate mentions of separate 'components', despite each being mentioned in isolation (and unnecessary if all he needs to do is say 'be'), but this is contradicted by the sequence shown below
Sura 23:12-14 (The Believers) "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature."
This is not a miracle, it is the utterings of a superstitious mind using already existent material
I would like to show a quote from an arab christian about the koran:
LOL ! When you get a correct translation let me know ok. By the way the challenge was EMBRYOLOGY. Man being made out of clay was not the issue of debate. I mentioned embryology and you went off into the clay issue...lol
You keep on going off the topic. Attack the topic it self not those things out side it.
Below is the correct translation of that verse. Have this reveiwed by you Christian Arab brothers at
www.arabicbible.com
[23] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay
[23] Then We placed him as a sperm into a thing that sojournes and implants
[ 24:15] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers
Sorry to say the word "alaqah" original means " a thing that clings" which is derived from the root word "aliqa" ~ to hang , dangle, cling . The meaning "a clot of congealed blood" are modern medical terminologies of the arabic word. The root of alaqah does not SUPORT the meaning of "a clot of congealed blood"
Have you ever studied Embryology ? How can you make a statement of "This is not a miracle, it is the utterings of a superstitious mind using already existent material" ? If you are a male more than likely you would know nothing about Embryology which is typical in this country.
Then We placed him as a sperm into a thing that sojournes and implants
Sperm is translated from the word "NUTFAH". However again the word sperm also is a modern medical terminolgy and is NOT the original meaning of the word. The word "NUTFAH" is a feminine verbal noun which is derived from the arabic word "natafa" meaning to trickle, or dribble, whereas the orignial meaning is "a thing that trickles".
This "Nutfah" or thing that trickles is defined by another name in the Quran:
[80] Verily We create mankind from a tricking gamete (Nutfatin amshaajin) for Us to try him, and We made for him hearing and sight
The thing that Trickles ie NUTFAH is defines as AMSHAAJ meaning "a gemete or germ". So tell me what is a sperm ?
germ
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: jûrm KEY
NOUN: 1. Biology A small mass of protoplasm or cells from which a new organism or one of its parts may develop.
2. The earliest form of an organism; a seed, bud, or spore.
3. A microorganism, especially a pathogen.
4. Something that may serve as the basis of further growth or development: the germ of a project.
gamete
SYLLABICATION: gam·ete
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: gmt, g-mt KEY
NOUN: A reproductive cell having the haploid number of chromosomes, especially a mature sperm or egg capable of fusing with a gamete of the opposite sex to produce the fertilized egg.
ETYMOLOGY: New Latin gameta, from Greek gamet, wife gamets, husband, from gamein, to marry, from gamos, marriage. See gem- in Appendix
So we have confirmed what the NUTFAH is in the Quran. It is "a germ cell that trickles"
http://www.kumc.edu/instruction/medicin ... e/male.htm
The Quran says this thing the NUTFAH is placed into something that sojourns and implants or "Qararin Makeen" THe arabic words "Qarar" is a masculine noun that means a sojourner or one that temporarily stays or temoprarily resides often applied to a traveler. The second name it is called is "Makeen" an implanter or one that implants or something that implants itself which is also a masculine noun.
What is this "Qararin Makeen" the strickling germ cell is placed in ? The female Ovum. When the female Ovum is released from the Ovary it TEMPORILY RESIDES in the Fallopian Tube until fertilization by a SINGLE Germ Cell called a Sperm that trickles to its destined location or if not fertilized within a due time the Ovum will erupt resulting into a female's menstral cycle. After fertilization the Ovum proceeds to the Utterus wher it Implants its self. This is called the egg implantation. Note: At this stage the cells cannot be seen with the human eye.
Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings
After the implantation of the fertilized ovum it starts to cling to the walls of the Utterus of its mother in which the Umblimical Cord is developed from
and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers
This goes far as the clothing of bones with muscle. This is identified as the 12th stage of development in which you CANNOT IDINTIFY WITH THE NAKED EYE, cause the embro as this stage is at 3-5 mm! Go and ask any Embrologist. I worked in the medical field and in order for us to look at the embro at this stage is through a microscope.
You making the statement of "
With Mohammed's alledge 9 wives and umpteen concubines he would have seen lots of miscarriages, the only time a foetus looks like congealed blood!." showed the visitors of this Forum your wantonness. Obviously you are unaware of the stages of embryology and I provided a link for your convienience in which the Quran is Identifying at its stage. Also please click on the picture for a closer look and see what looks like teeth marks that is the spinal development and also the Embryo its self looks like something chewed . These pics are microscopical images not poloride pics.
http://anatomy.med.unsw.edu.au/cbl/embr ... Stages.htm
Present this to an Embryolgist and have him send me his report that this is inaccurate with his PHD signiture and Medical facility and I will renounce Islam. However though, I would go back to Judaism, not Christianity, and reject Jesus as an imposter and a lier as being a former Jew beleived just like the charged you brong against Muhammad.
Also, If you doubt the translation that I posted then go to
www.arabicbible.com email them (your arabic speaking Christian brothers) the translation with your choice of translation and ask them which one is more accurate.
Have a Nice Day !