Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilah
There are plenty more: Tabari VI:67 “Aisha reported: ‘Solitude became dear to Muhammad and he used to seclude himself in the cave of Hira where he would engage in the Tahannuth worship for a number of nights before returning to Khadija and getting provisions for a like period, till truth came upon him while he was in a cave. The first form of revelation was a true vision in sleep. He did not see any vision but it came like the break of dawn.’” What is this Tahannuth worship?, so Mohammed goes to a cave to practice this tahannuth worship and goes back to his pagan wife to obtain provisions to go back to this cave for a like period, am I to believe his pagan wife is giving him provisions to go retreat himself in a cave and worship the one true God? Tabari VI:67: “The Prophet said, ‘I had been standing, but fell to my knees; and crawled away, my shoulders trembling. I went to Khadija and said, ‘Wrap me up! When the terror had left me, he came to me and said, ‘Muhammad, you are the Messenger of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘I had been thinking of hurling myself down from a mountain crag, but he appeared to me as I was thinking about this and said, ‘I am Gabriel and you are the Messenger.’ Then he said, Recite!’ I said, ‘What shall I recite?’ He took me and pressed me three times. ‘I fear for my life.’ She said, ‘Rejoice, for Allah will never put you to shame.” I would like you to focus on the quote in bold, this is from Khadijah Mohammed's first wife a notable pagan, what does she mean by this? is she worshipping the one true God as a pagan!? Ishaq:105 “Aisha said that when Allah desired to honor Muhammad, the first sign of prophethood was a vision in brightness of day shown to him in his sleep. He liked nothing better than to be alone. ["idle hands are the devil's workshop" truer words were never said when applied to Mohammed. In hindsight we know Mohammed liked to fondle young girls, there is a repulsive hadith about it, considering his wife Khadija was older than him but she was rich, and Mohammed liked young girls we can see why he liked to be alone, his wife was approaching 70 it would explain why he would place himself on her thigh in the foetal position, a psychiatrist would have a field day diagnosing Mohammed but thats a completely different topic ] When he left Mecca and there was no house in sight, every stone and tree that passed by said, ‘Peace be unto you, Allah’s Apostle.’ [Wait a minute jibreel hadn't come to choke him 3 times yet for his crime of not being able to read or recite!, but already trees and stones are calling him allah's apostle? no wonder he wanted to commit suicide] Muhammad would turn around and see naught but trees and stones. He stayed seeing and hearing things as long as it pleased Allah. Then Gabriel came to him with the gift of Allah’s grace [This was the choking that led him to run home to khadija and ask her to cover him with a blanket hardly a gift] while he was on Hira in the month of Ramadhan. The Apostle would pray in seclusion on Hira every year for a month to practice Tahannuth as was the custom of the Quraysh in the heathen days. . After praying in seclusion, he would walk around the Ka’aba seven times.” As was the custom of the pagan Quraysh as noted in this hadith they would practice ramadan, and "Tahannuth worship" in seclusion in a cave all the while calling the name of allah, Mohammed was simply a pagan, he even incorporated the paganistic rites of walking around the ka'ba 7 times, and had the nerve to justify it by claiming this is the religion of Abraham, that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the prophets all circumnavigated and kissed that abomination you call a black stone, how do you justify this?
This is from a verse in the koran written after the facts with the intention of aligning the god of the koran with the God of the bible, it is nothing major, more like a haphazard attempt to deflect focus, the hadiths indicate otherwise, where is the evidence in the hadiths that the pagans were using their idols as mediators to get to allah? Remember what we agreed on scriptures and our God given logic, I am using your sunnah in that process, if indeed there is a conflict between the sunnah and the quran I would rather use my God given logic to decipher what is the more logical story. Again read my post above, and please I would like to see your evidence the jews prayed to Yahweh through baal.
How can you 'purify' a religion from paganistic practices by still incorporating those paganistic practices? The difference being the religion was not 'purified' by making sacred pilgrimages to the idol sanctuaries the idol temples were destroyed and they were brought back to the worship of Yahweh without any pagan rituals, pilgrimages or lascivious rites. There is no evidence Abraham Isaac or Jacob set foot anywhere near that black stone, there is no evidence it came from heaven, and there is no evidence it turned black because of menstruating women.
Before addressing the rest of your post this alone should send alarm bells through you "The goddess was apparently identified with the white stone, which is still in the Kaaba," Are you trying to tell me your purified religion has a symbol to a pagan goddess still enshrined in your most holy site!!!? Also please do recall what we universally agreed on what the holy books have to say with our God given logic , Why on earth are you sending me a website that contradicts what you believe, what are you trying to prove? This is what the website says: "Indeed, scanty as our sources are, a reconstruction of the pre-Islamic religion of Arabia, even in the dim outline which is all that is possible for us, reveals the fact that, much as Mohammed may have been influenced by Jewish and Christian ideas, the substructure of his religious edifice lay deep in that of heathenism... Allah, whom the Prophet proclaimed, was not a new god; he was Al-Ilah, ‘The Ilah’ that had long been known both in North and South Arabia, whose name was an epithet which had been applied here and there to the supreme deity of local pantheons, and had gradually superseded local names. ... His beginnings reached back into prehistory and had its roots in that complex of ideas suggested by the names Athtar (Ishtar, Ashtart) and Athirat (Asherah)" "Further, when the Prophet chose Mecca instead of Jerusalem as the holy city of Islam, and later followed the choice by the making of the pilgrimage, the performing of the ceremonies, and the capture of the sacred places of the Quraish, and enjoined these ceremonies upon his followers, he adopted as parts of his religion customs and rites that had their origin in the worship of Al-Uzza and Hubal "The Kaaba and its sacred stones were originally the shrine and symbols of those gods, and the sacred doves of the Kaaba were the birds of Al-Uzza, and the sacrifices of sheep were originally sacrifices to these deities, since the Prophet’s early message of the oneness of Allah and the necessity of submission was a gospel that had in it no place for sacrifice. Indeed no one can read an account of the ceremony of the Hagg, ... without realizing that the ritual of the Hagg is a ritual of Al-Uzza and Hubal, purified and veneered with a coating of Islamism." So since the site mentions that al-uzza and Hubal were mother and son with no sunnah reference it must be correct regardless of all the other disturbing picture it builds of Mohammed and islam, just select the parts you want your audience to see disregard the rest. :
Everybody is free to interpret it the way the like given the evidences they have at their disposal, but since I am of the "monkey see monkey do" mentality I should step in line? I was careful to point out that the english translation makes it ambiguous as to what Abu Sayfan meant, and I stick by that. I believe there are lies in the koran, lies in the hadiths too, fabricated commentaries, conversations e.t.c, like Abraham calling himself a muslim, and Jesus speaking to His mother in the womb and commanding dates and water to come forth. Where are the hadith references that state that the Quraish believed this?, you have just the word of the koran alone but ofcourse you are looking at it from the perception that it is the word of God and perfect. Mohammed was the son of a caravan merchant and a politician I would give him that much, he first said the high flying cranes which were the daughters of allah were to be consulted, this was to appeal to the pagan section of his community to get them to accept islam, it's like claiming the God of christianity and islam is the same to gain more converts, converts who were going to declare the shahadah and give him 5% of booty ( incidentally if Mohammed was following the same God where is the precedent for Moses, David, Samuel, Jesus, and the disciples collecting 5% of booty to be awarded to them and them alone?), when his followers confronted him that he said allah has no partners he simply renegued on it, hence the satanic verses in sura 53:19-20, mentioned by all early islamic historians and ofcourse no longer in the koran.
We can speculate as long as we want, supply the evidence please, judaism and christianity supercede islam, allah is nowhere in the bible, the Schofield bible that Ahmed Deedat obtained that information from was an erroneous footnote that has since been amended.
Did you? I said baal meant lord the site above says baal, plural baalim means lord, earlier on you mentioned you are were not refuting baal is related to hubal, what is your point?
There is no evidence that associates Elohim with El, the pagans that believed in el as a tree god have no relation with the Elohim of Judaism, Elohim is not derived from el, again this is an Ahmed Deedat tactic, it is like me saying since hello and hell sound phonetically the same in english etymology they must have come from the same root source, coincidentally elah in hebrew means an oak as was the name of one of Esau's sons. Why are you quoting this website? coincidentally the website mentions allah is derived from el, the sky god of the canaanite you are prepared to link to the One True God, I find it slightly amusing how polite it was when describing allah and how it attacked Elohim were they worried by a fatwa?. I have to ask you why you consider such sources that ridicule your own beliefs, are you so desperate to get one on the opposition you are prepared to degrade your own beliefs in the process? Is this an islamic way of thinking, it would explain why palestininian suicide bombers are prepared to blow themselves to bits to kill a pregnant jewish woman, since you claim you are a jew how do you feel about this? Are you in favour of your people being driven to the sea? Do you want your own people to be subjected to islamic rule by force? Do you belief the jews deserve the state of Israel? What do you feel about the hadith that says "oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him"? you never answered this question the first time round, it is a sahih hadith I am curious as to how you view it As your source says El is the god of nature, a tree god, a drunk who lives in a mountain (akin to Zeus), baal was his son, baal was worshipped for agricultural produce of the land, the same with hubal ofcourse you will never see the semblance. Sorry the lord and cherisher of their fathers of old was the moon god hubal. Need I remind of Mohammed's grandfather's prayer to the moon god for help against Abrah's army?
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 3&start=20 . Let us have a look at this 'miracle' in embryonal description already well known in Mohammed's time Clay : Sura 15:26 (Al-Hijr (Stoneland, Rock City)) "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;" Hardly an original creation story. From the pre-bible Epic Of Gilgamesh (I:101-104) "The Goddess Aruru, she washed her hands, took a pinch of clay, threw it down in the wild. In the wild she created Endiku, the hero, offspring of silence, knit strong by Ninurta.". A much better story, too. Water > Sura 25:54 (The Criterion (The Standard)) "It is He Who has created man from water: ... " Hardly original a woman breaking her water during child birth could easily cause a superstitious and unlearned individual to believe people came from water. Dust > Sura 30:20 (The Romans (The Byzantines)) "Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; ... " The bible was already in circulation another case of plagiarism Blood > Sura 96:2 (The Clot (Read!)) "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:" With Mohammed's alledge 9 wives and umpteen concubines he would have seen lots of miscarriages, the only time a foetus looks like congealed blood!. Your standard islamic response to this 'miracle' is to claim it is one thing and another, separate mentions of separate 'components', despite each being mentioned in isolation (and unnecessary if all he needs to do is say 'be'), but this is contradicted by the sequence shown below Sura 23:12-14 (The Believers) "Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature." This is not a miracle, it is the utterings of a superstitious mind using already existent material I would like to show a quote from an arab christian about the koran: ""... It no more proves its inspiration than a man's strength demonstrates his wisdom, or a woman's beauty, her virtue. Only by its teachings, its principles, and content can a book be judged rightly; not by its eloquence, elegance, or poetic strength" |
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