Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahI have not withdrawn from what I said, your own sunnah shows the foundations of islam to be nothing more than paganism, I find it amazing you fail to see it yourself
Other than the hadith that you quoted from Tabari...
Did you read the hadiths I posted about Hubal and how the pagan arabs conducted their prayers to the idol Hubal and allah?
Ishaq:66/Tabari VI:2 “It is alleged, and Allah only knows the truth, that Abdul Muttalib encountered opposition when he was digging Zamzam. He vowed that if given ten sons, to make his labor less arduous and to protect him, he would sacrifice one of them to Allah at the Ka’aba.
... which mentions nothing of the name Hubal, but you interpreted this hadith to be refering to Hubal based on you preconceived conjecture that Hubal also was made sacrifices to at the Ka'abah.
However, I posted numerous versus from the Quran refuting your allegation and you never quoted ONE verse to support the contrary.
Also we went over this and brought up testamony from Quran that the pagans worshiped IDOLS to bring them selves closer to Allah, the practice of this is that they would go to an Idol and pray through that idol as a mediator. Hubal was not the only one this was done with, Lat, Uzza, and Mannat were also mediators.
It is significant that while the sources, Islamic as well as others, mention idols of many Gods and Goddesses in the Ka‘ba and elsewhere, they nowhere mention an idol of Allãh. The only explanation is that every God and Goddesses was seen by the pagan Arabs as representing Allãh who could be prayed to through any one of them. In fact, the Meccans pointed out to Muhammad (Qur’ãn 6.149; 37.68) that “Allãh had never forbidden them to worship other gods with him.”16 Ibn Ishãq reports that ‘Abdu’l-Muttalib “stood by Hubal praying to Allah.”17 The Qur’ãn is never tired of saying that those whom the idolaters associate with Allah will not intercede for them on the last day. For the pagan Arabs, however, Allãh is no other than his associates; he is them and they are he. Of course, the pagans have no notion of the last day when alone Allãh will visit them; instead, they are aware of him every moment of their lives. http://www.bharatvani.org/books/htemples2/ch11.htm
(Quran 6:148/9) Those who are pagans say : If Allaah so willed we would not have made partners (with Him), nor our fathers, neither are we going to prohibit such a thing.
(Quran39:3) Is it not for Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those(pagans) who take for protectors others than Allah (say): "We only serve them (the Idols) in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.
What part of this you dont get ? They worshiped the idols which included Hubal as intercessors with Allah. This does not mean because they prayed through Hubal or any of the idols to Allah that Hubal or any of those Idols were Allah. They Also prayed through al-Uzza to Allah, does this mean Al-Uzza is Allah ? When the Jews prayed through Baal to YHWH does this mean YHWH is Baal ?
(Quran 10:18) and they ( pagans) worship besides Allah what cannot harm them nor benefit them, and they say: These (Idols) are our intercessors with Allah...
As for those Hadith (sunnah) that you keep on quoting to show islam is derived from paganism, like wise, I posted Quranic Verses and Hadith that explain the history of how the religion of Abraham and Ishmail became paganized and then when it was purified it maintained practices accociated with pagan practices ~ whom them selves adopted it from the practice of Abraham and Ishmail. What I did is went back further in the history of islamic teachings of where some of those alleged practices were derived from which you could never prove contrary.
In islam based on the Quran and Sunnah when Adam and his wife finally came down to the Earth from the paradise (Quran 2:30-39) they received words from their Lord of how to repent in which they learnt and weeped unto their Lord with these words upon the earth (Quran 7:23). This place on earth was named after the commemoration of the even of Adam and his wife called "Bakka" meaning "a place of weeping or wailing" where the first house of worship for mankind (Quran 3:96) was built by Adam and his wife when mankind was only ONE NATION before they became divided (Quran 2:213,10:19). After a period of time man fell into idolotry and started to worship other things, and currupted the sacred house in which prophets were sent to them to warn them ( Quran 2:219 ) but they became divided and began to disperse through out the land each group following their own desires of a deity. Due to the sins of the people the land of Bakka that was once an Oasis like Egypt became a desolation that made the region uninhabitable. After a period of time Allah chose and guided Abraham out of his home land to a blessed land and gave him a son called Ishmael and then guided them both to the anchient and sacred land of Bakka to re-establish His sacred house and to pruify it from idols (Quran 2:124-129). Thus the foundations of the sacred house was the only remains that was there from former times in which Abraham and his son lefted up, rebuilt, and purified when Ishmael passed the age of puberty. Before this, Ismael and his mother was left in the sacred land of Bakka by Abraham per the instructions of Allah. Hajjar (Haggar) Ishmael's mother sought for water for her son but could not find none, and feared death of her son and her self if she did not soon. She cried unto Allah in which Allah answered her prayer and sent an angel to root up a well. A well was sprung and water flourished for her and her son. The water drew the attention of wild life that drew the attention of passing bedouin travelers that showed signs of water. Tribes began to be attracted to the location cause of its water in which they settle there in which the land was now and again inhabitable. After this the place had began to be called "Makka" meaning "a place of water" and Bakka remained as its anchient name due to the commemoration of Adam and his Wife. Thus a community evolved with Ishmael and his mother. Abraham returned after his son passed the age of Puberty to rebuild the ancient house (Shahih Al- Bukhari Volumn 004, Book 055, Hadith Number 583) From Hence the right of Ramadhan, Al-Hajj, Ummrah, and the Salah was taught to Ishmael by Abraham through inspiration from Allah (Quran 2:129-132,135; 14:35-41). After this Ishmael taught these rights and practices to his family and tribe who became the custodians of the sacred House. After generations passed, like before, the descendants of Ishmael fell into idolorty and incorporated other practices into the once pure religion and practice taught by Abraham to his son. These descendants idoltorated the religion, and inovated pratices into it that became customs and traditional practices among the Arabs of that region NOT originally belonging to the Religion of Abraham "millatu Ibraheem" ie the religious practice of Ibraheem in which later was purified and restored by the advent of Muhammad as a prophet of Allah whom was revealed the Quran as a divine book of Guidance (Quran 3:67-68,95-97)
The Jews also had a parallel history of falling into Idolotry and then later the religion was purified to an extant by the advent of prophets that came to them.
You used islamic sources to criticize by taking it out of its perspective ignoring the other teachings that explain how those pagan practices came to be.
I saved one other thing for this debate waiting for you to hang you self. Do you know about the family ideology of the Idols that was at the Ka'abah ?
What was the Idelogical family of Hubal ? Who was the mother of Hubal in the pagan phylosophy ?
Hubal was the son of Al-Uzza
"Two deities appear in pre-Islamic times to have been worshipped at the Kaaba, Al-Uzza and Hubal. These the Meccans invoked at the battle of Ohod. These deities were represented by two stones in the Kaaba, a white stone and a black stone. There is much evidence that Al-Uzza was a mother-goddess and Hubal was her son. The goddess was apparently identified with the white stone, which is still in the Kaaba, and her son with the black stone. The Kaaba was the shrine of these deities; the Zem-zem was a well sacred to them, and the Ghabghab the place where their sacrifices were slain. In the Zemzem golden gazelles were once found, and the finder placed them in the Kaaba. The goddess is said to have had another shrine at a point called Nakhla, or ‘Palm.’ The star Venus was sacred to her, and the Quraish held a feast to her every year.
"Christian writers testify that her feasts were accompanied by lewed practices. Doves (pigeons) were sacred to her, and are still protected in the Kaaba as Allah’s birds. There can be no doubt that Al-Uzza and Hubal were survivors of that primitive cult with which the names of Athtar and Athirat (Ishtar and Asherah) are so indissolubly associated. Hubal is here the counterpart of Dhu-’l-Shara, the god of the Nabathaeans, and Al-Uzza of his mother. Al-Uzza. ‘The powerful one,’ is clearly an epithet, which has superseded an earlier name.
http://www.hanskrause.de/HKHPE/hkhpe_35_03.htm
Now tell me How could Allah be Hubal if Al-Uzza was the daughter of Allah in which Al-Uzza was the mother of Hubal ?
Am I the only one reading your extrapolation of this hadith with amazement, let us read the whole paragraph of that hadith in context
:
Hmm lets see if I am interpolating my own meaning lets see what others say about this hadith:
Many other also understood the same Hadith hadith I Quoted that Allah and Hubal were not the name
It was before [Hubal] that 'Abd-al-Muttalib[61] shuffled the divination arrows [in order to find out which of his ten children he should sacrifice in fulfilment of a vow he had sworn], and the arrows pointed to his son 'Abdullah, the father of the Prophet[62]. Hubal was also the same idol which abu-Sufyan ibn-Harb[63] addressed when he emerged victorious after the battle of Uhud[64], saying:
"Hubal, be thou exalted" (i.e. may thy religion triumph);
To which the Prophet replied:
"Allah is more exalted and more majestic[65]."
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Al-Kalbi/uzza.htm
Hubal
“Hubal was worshipped at Mecca; his idol stood in the Ka‘ba, and appears to have been in reality, the god of that sanctuary… It would be unsafe to trust the descriptions of the idol in question which are given by writers of a later period; there is reason, however, to believe that the god had a human form. We may likewise accept as historical the statement that near him were kept divining arrows, used for the purpose of ascertaining his will or forecasting future events. It is related that the idol was brought by ‘Amr b. LuHai from Ma‘ãb (Moab), a tradition which may contain some elements of truth, for we have independent evidence indicating that the god was known in the North. He seems to be mentioned in a Nabataean inscription at Hejr; and the tribe of Kalb, who dwelt in the Syrian Desert, used the name of Hubal as the name of a person or clan; the same tribe… used in like manner the names of Îsãf and Nã’ila, two other deities peculiar to Mecca. Moreover, ‘Amr b. LuHai is the representative of the Huzã‘a, a tribe who, according to tradition, occupied the sacred territory of Mecca before it passed into the hands of the Quraish. The assertion that’Amr introduced the worship of idols into Mecca for the first time is, of course, utterly incredible. But the hypothesis that Hubal was a late importation from a foreign country is further supported by the fact that we hear nothing of him in other parts of Arabia, and even at Mecca personal names compounded with Hubal were unknown. When the Meccans gained a victory over the Prophet in the immediate neighbourhood of Medina, their leader shouted, ‘Hurrah for Hubal!’ Thus they regarded him as the natural enemy of the God preached by Muhammad.”58
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/htemples2/ch11.htm
In 624 at the battle called "Uhud", the war cry of the Qurayshites was, "O people of `Uzza, people of Hubal." By the end of that war, the victorious Abu Sufyan cried: "O Hubal be exalted, O Hubal be exalted." The Prophet answered him: "God is the highest and the most exalted."
http://enlil.ff.cuni.cz/jais/v002cmt/pavcmt01.htm
So I guess they are interpolating to huh ? Or is it that you just want it to have a meaning to fit your agenda ?
You extrapolated quranic verses and gave them your own interpretation even though they were not so explicit, good thing with arabic you can always express it in the way you want for your own agenda, so instead of beat it is beat(lightly) or instead of have sexual intercourse with your wives whenever and however you like it is (do some charity afterwards for verily allah is merciful!)
Now I am interpolating Quran verses ? Hmm ok let the people who read this forum decide that. As far as I know those who have read it so far that I know see it clearly that the Quran rejects Allah of being an Idol. As a matter of fact lets see what you contempories say to this manner:
More confirmation by Christian propaganda that Allah was not an Idol to the pagans of Arabia.
".... The most convincing piece of evidence that the latter was at work is the fact that of all the gods of Mecca, Allah alone was not represented by an idol....
How did the pagan Meccans view their god Allah? The Quran provides direct and primary evidence.
If you ask them [the pagan Quraysh] who created the heavens and the earth and made subject the sun and the moon, they will certainly reply "Allah.". . . And indeed if you ask them who sends down the rain from the sky and so restores life to the earth after its death, they will certainly reply, "Allah." (Quran 29:62, 63)
And if you ask them who created them, they will certainly reply, "Allah." (Quran 43:87)
Say: Who is it who sustains you from the sky and from the earth? Or who is it who has power over hearing and sight? And who is it who brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living And who is it who rules and regulates all affairs? They will soon answer, "Allah."
If you ask them who created the heavens and the earth, they will certainly say "Allah." Say: Those (female) things you call upon apart from Allah, do you think that if God wills evil to me, they can remove this evil, or, if He wills mercy to me, they can hold back this mercy? (Quran 39:38)
In this latter verse the "high god" relationship is quite marked. On the one hand, there is Allah, the creator, sustainer, and ruler of the universe, and on the other, a host of minor deities-the "daughters of Allah" among them-who intercede with the lord of the gods, precisely the view that is attacked in the Quran:
They serve apart from Allah that which neither harms nor benefits them, and they say, "These arc our intercessor’s with Allah." Say.- Are You informing God of something He knows not in the heavens or on earth? Glory be to Him! He is far above any partners. (Quran 10:18)
When they embark upon ships, they call upon Allah, putting their faith in Him (alone); but once He has delivered them safely back to land, they associate (others With Him). (Quran 29:65)
The Quran is our most certain testimony to the religious life in Mecca before the appearance of Islam. At least at the beginning of his career, Muhammad was concerned not with regulating the life of a community of believers, as he later was in Medina, but rather with reforming the beliefs and practices of his fellow Meccans. "Reforming" is a more appropriate term than "converting," because the Quran also reveals, as we have seen, that the worship of Allah was already well established there before Muhammad.
http://www.allah-muhammad-quran.de/Engl ... pping.html
Your Christian brethren who have read the Quran for them selves obviously see this explicit distinction but you cant see it. Maybe your reading level isnt that great. Why dont you pick up the Quran and rad it for your self an come up with your own criticism rather doing the "MONEY SEE MONKEY DO" game.
Quote:
From a grammatical-lexical point of view, allaah doesn’t comply with the rules and its root still remains mysterious and unidentifiable
Who is to say those rules weren't amended and altered after the concept of islam?
And who is to say that the rules of "Allahumma" was later change to Elohim used in the Bible to refer to YHWH when Elohim can be pronounced in Hebrew as Allahumma in which both are made up of the consonants "alhm" after Christianity
Irrelivant ! I address your wishful thinking of saying Hubal had the same meaning as Baal ~ in which I would agree meant lord. I produced proof that Hubal had no such meaning as Baal. Also you forgot that the Hebrew language is a mixture of Babylonian language in which they adopted many words like Adonai, and El etc. So the roots for Hubal can only be found in Hebrew/Aramaic where as in Arabic it has no root word but only a Linguistical meaning "Husky one". I did not try to refute if Hubal had any association with Baal. You dont even know the language but you are giving meanings to words while making no reference to confirm its meaning. What do you expect people to do, believe everything you say cause your a christian ?
Who is to say those rules weren't amended and altered after the concept of islam?...
....."" By "Arab Christian heritage"Arab means: the Arabic language known and spoken in the Arabian peninsula and by the Arab kingdoms before Islam...It is known thatthe Arabic Northern characters used by the Quran were created by the Chistian Missionaries of Hira, centuries before Islam, as says C. Rabin in art."Arabiyya, in "Encyclopedie de l'Islam",
Again you have some terrible reading comprehension you keep hellusinating on seeing things and meanings that arent even there. The underline in the above you quotedis speaking about the Arabic alphabet characters not the Arabic Gramma or Orthograph. The Hebrew of the Old Testament was first written in Phoenician Charaters then later rendered into early Aramaic Characters http://www.omniglot.com/writing/aramaic.htm , http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hebrew.htm . Did this change its grammar ?
And while we are discussing this would you like to show us where Eli or El is in the aramaic we have today? didn't Jesus say " Eli ELi Lama sa bachthani?"
Now tell me this... Jesus is suppose to be your god or the son of G-D but why would he use a PAGAN word "El" or call upon "El" which was a pagan Canaanite deity.
El was a sky god in Canaanite mythology, whose rain fertilized the earth, making agriculture possible. In a country dependent on rain, his role (and cult) were crucial, and he rapidly emerged as the chief deity in the Canaanite pantheon. El was the father of Baal in Ugaritic texts of the second millennium BCE. He was apparently adopted by the Israelite scribes, who lived in the southern hill district of the region and conflated with Yahweh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)
The Assembly of Gods
"...Genesis is in two parts: 1:1 - 11:9 is the first part, and is probably Babylonian in origin, since it ends with the founding of Babylon. The second part, 11:10 - 50:9 is probably Arabian in origin, since it focuses on desert tribes, and their God, El. El is the most common Babylonian-Syrian-Arabian name for God."
- Paul Trejo ( pet@netcom.com)
"The Canaanites evidently knew nothing of the elaborate pantheon and cosmogony of the Mesopotamians, which probably reflects the relative simplicity of their lives. Their interest was to correlate and explain the various forces of nature and society in all the complexity of harmony and tension, but to declare their dependence on the gods and to placate them"
"Corresponding to Anu in Mesopotamia, the king paramount in the celestial court was El ('God'), who give his sanction to all decisions among the gods affecting nature and society. He is father of the divine family and president of the divine assembly on the 'mount of assembly', the equivalent of Hebrew har mo'ed, which became through the Greek transliteration Armageddon. In Canaanite mythology he is known as 'the Bull', symbolizing his strength and creative force, and is probably represented in the elderly god who is blessing a worshipper on a limestone sculpture from Ras Shara. In the myths he is termed bny bnwt, which might mean 'Creator of Created Things', but which we take to mean 'Giver of Potency', according to his role in two royal legends from Ras Shamra, but he is generally depicted as sitting aloof and indeed remote, enthroned at 'the outflowing of the (two) streams'. This recalls the Biblical Garden of Eden, from which a river flowed to form the four rivers, Tigris, Euphrates, Gihon and Pishon."
- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology
"Thou givest them water from the flowing stream of thy delights (gan 'eden, the Garden of Eden.)
For with thee is the fountain of life."
- Psalm 36:9
El "was known as the Creator God, the Kindly One, the Compassionate One. He expressed the concept of ordered government and social justice. It is noteworthy that the Bible never stigmatizes the Canaanite worship of El, whose authority in social affairs was recognized by the Patriarchs. His consort was Asherah, the mother goddess, represented in Canaanite sanctuaries by a natural or stylized tree (Hebrew ashera).
- Magnus Magnusson, BC - The Archaeology of the Bible Lands
In Canaan, the king "is described as 'the Servant of El', as King David was 'the Servant of God'. This describes the status of the king as the executive of the will of the divine king. This duty is understood to be a privilege as well as a burden."
- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37560b7b083d.htm
Here is another reference with a pic of the Idol El that the Jews adopted as worship.
El - (also called Latipan, and possibly Dagon)
He is known as the Father of the gods, 'the father of mankind', the 'Bull', and 'the creator of creatures'. He is grey haired and bearded and lives at Mt. Lel. He is a heavy drinker and has gotten extremly drunk at his banquets.
As a young god, he went out to the sea and, spying two ladies, one of whom is presumably Athirat, becomes aroused, roasts a bird and asks the two to choose between being his daughters or his wives. They become his wives and in due course they give birth to Shachar, Shalim, and possibly other gracious gods, who could be Athirat's seventy children and/or much of the rest of the pantheon. The new family raises a sanctuary in the desert and lived there for eight years
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33g ... aq.html#A2
"El" is the proper name of the canaanite god that was adopted, and worshiped by the Jews. Why would Jesus who is suppose to be god or the son of G-D call on El when which was a Canaanite god ?
Now of course you are going to come back on this one with every tactic way possible. There is without doubt "El" was adopted by the Jews and was a word incorporated into hebrew in which the Jews worshiped the IDOL pagan canaanite false god.
How ever for us, Jesus did not call upon El or he did not say Eli ~ my El, cause the one who uttered such unbelief of "WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME !?" Could not have come out of the mouth of The Messiah Son of Maryam the messenger of Alllaah/YhWH.
" and they (the enemies of Jesus) said: We killed the Messiah Jesus Son of Maryam ! But they killed him not nor crucified but however it APPEARED TO THEM SO... (Quran 4:157)
Allah has not association with Baal
[37:125-126] "Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators Allah your Lord and Cherisher and the Lord and Cherisher of your fathers of old?"
Lets see what else the wishful thinker Liberate has got to say:
And btw your comments about Mohammed's utterings after an epileptic seizure, the text in your koran you have in your hand can only be traced to 150 years after the death of Mohammed plenty of time for editing and proof reading even then there are words in it people do not understand
O really ! Where is the proof ? The same thing could have happened to the Gospels. Anyhow. 150 Years after Muhammad they still at that time didnt know anything about embryology. Embryology was not founded until after the invention of the telescope/microscope which was after the 16-17 century almost 900 years after. With out the microscope and sophesticated technology after the 17 century it was merely imposible to know concieve.
Amazing whenever you cant refute something you always come up with these littel tactics like what you stated above with no Proof. Wanna debate about the authencity of the Quran also ? We can do this on another board if ya like ? Anyhow, lets see what other back flip maneuvers your going to come up with.
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