Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilah
I have not withdrawn from what I said, your own sunnah shows the foundations of islam to be nothing more than paganism, I find it amazing you fail to see it yourself Am I the only one reading your extrapolation of this hadith with amazement, let us read the whole paragraph of that hadith in context: Abu Sufyan ascended a high place and said, "Is Muhammad present amongst the people?" The Prophet said, "Do not answer him." Abu Sufyan said, "Is the son of Abu Quhafa present among the people?" The Prophet said, "Do not answer him." Abd Sufyan said, "Is the son of Al-Khattab amongst the people?" He then added, "All these people have been killed, for, were they alive, they would have replied." On that, 'Umar could not help saying, "You are a liar, O enemy of Allah! Allah has kept what will make you unhappy." Abu Safyan said, "Superior may be Hubal!" On that the Prophet said (to his companions), "Reply to him." They asked, "What may we say?" He said, "Say: Allah is More Elevated and More Majestic!" Abu Sufyan said, "We have (the idol) Al-'Uzza, whereas you have no 'Uzza!" The Prophet said (to his companions), "Reply to him." They said, "What may we say?" The Prophet said, "Say: Allah is our Helper and you have no helper." Abu Sufyan said, "(This) day compensates for our loss at Badr and (in) the battle (the victory) is always undecided and shared in turns by the belligerents. You will see some of your dead men mutilated, but neither did I urge this action, nor am I sorry for it." Narrated Jabir: Some people took wine in the morning of the day of Uhud and were then killed as martyrs. Let us be clear this is what you are saying: a pagan calls out for Mohammed and his friends, he then says that since they didn't answer they must be dead, one of Mohammed's companion calls him a liar and then says "You are a liar, O enemy of Allah! Allah has kept what will make you unhappy." , and the pagan then says " superior maybe hubal", do you not see that the pagan's statement is not mutually exclusive from what Mohammed's friend Umar said? it's like me saying "you are a liar, God has let you believe what will make you unhappy" then you reply " superior maybe the lord" is this the kind of statement someone makes when their statement is meant to be contradictory to what I said? where do you see in that statement that hubal and allah are not the same? The statement is ambiguous at best and at worst Abu Sufyan is calling allah by his other name saying "superior maybe hubal" this is not the kind of statement someone makes when they want to establish their god is better than yours, the english translation makes it very ambiguous as to what Abu Sufyan meant.
You extrapolated quranic verses and gave them your own interpretation even though they were not so explicit, good thing with arabic you can always express it in the way you want for your own agenda, so instead of beat it is beat(lightly) or instead of have sexual intercourse with your wives whenever and however you like it is (do some charity afterwards for verily allah is merciful!) . I didn't make this conjecture up; common logic and your sunnah has led me to the conclusion allah is hubal, your hadiths tells me so, I would have to throw away all reasonable rationality to believe otherwise, it's a pity you are so fervent to defend this when the evidence is contradictory why haven't you addressed the hadith I showed about Abrah's army and what Mohammed's grandfather did?
Ok... "The Funk and Wignall's Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend says under "Allah," "The pre-Mohammedan Arabic god HUBAL HAD AS HIS TITLE ALLAHU meaning 'THE GOD'...As the PATRON OF THE KAABA AT MECCA, ALREADY SUPREME he was MAINTAINED IN MOHAMMEDAN THEOLOGY AS THE ONE GOD..." "the same dictionary says, "Some say that Hubal, was the REAL NAME OF ALLAHU, THE CHIEF GOD OF PRE-ISLAMIC TIMES, WHO BECAME THE ONE GOD OF ISLAM..." Even the Dictionary of Islam had to admit: "ITS REMARKABLE that there is NO DISTINCT ALLUSION TO THE IDOL [Hubal] in the WHOLE QURAN" In Ibn Warraq's book, Why I Am Not A Muslim, he writes about Hubal, and who he really is: "Hubal was worshipped at Mecca, and his idol...Hubal's position next to the black stone [ Muslims kiss this stone today] suggests there is some CONNECTION between the two..." The Old Testament abounds with warnings against Baal worship. According to the Apostle Paul those warnings "are there for our admonition on whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor.10:11) 1 Kings 18: 17: And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? 18: And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim. The word Baalim is the Hebrew plural for BAAL, the pagan god of nature and fertility. I quote from the Westminster Dictionary of the Bible article 'BAAL' : "... Baal worship apparently had its origin in the belief that every tract of ground owed its productivity to a supernatural being, or baal, that dwelt there. The farmers probably thought that from the Baalim, or fertility gods, of various regions came the increase of crops, fruit and cattle ... The worship of Baal was accompanied with lascivious rites [Hajj](1 Kings 14:24), the sacrifice of children in the fire by parents [As Mohammed grand father was going to do and countless others did] (Jer.19:5), and kissing the image (1 Kings 19:18; Hos 13:2) [Still eing done on pilgrimages to the ka'baa]. Baal was often associated with the goddess Astoreth (Judg.2:13) [I don't need to tell you about the shi'ite festival in memory of Ali by the same name, incidentally the priests of baal would regularly cut themselves up I was disgusted to see muslim women cutting up the foreheads of their infant children for this insanity of a festival] , and in the vicinity of his altar there was often an Asherah. (Judg.6:30; 1 Kings 16:32-33,R.V.)" Topple this with the evidence from your own hadiths it is damning.
LOL why have you tried to be deceptive here?, why didn't you look at the one called baal, plural baalim, and read what I typed, the old testament was not written in arabic: http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01168 The first line says "baal = lord" The name Alllaah (Allah) Unknown and not a contraction of the Arabic words "al-ilah" by a Christian critic of islam.
Who is to say those rules weren't amended and altered after the concept of islam? Remember http://www.al-bushra.org/arbhrtg/arbxtn04.htm? that you accused me of not reading? This is what it said about arabic: "" By "Arab Christian heritage"Arab means: the Arabic language known and spoken in the Arabian peninsula and by the Arab kingdoms before Islam...It is known thatthe Arabic Northern characters used by the Quran were created by the Chistian Missionaries of Hira, centuries before Islam, as says C. Rabin in art."Arabiyya, in "Encyclopedie de l'Islam", " And while we are discussing this would you like to show us where Eli or El is in the aramaic we have today? didn't Jesus say " Eli ELi Lama sa bachthani?"
This is your advocate?
God's name to Moses was Yahweh, meaning "I AM" if Mohammed was serving the same God surely he would have mentioned "I AM" sent me, the fact that he doesn't brings us to the rational conclusion that he is not serving the same God, his whole manner contradicts what the God of the bible says and acts, God doesn't pick one lone prophet and speak to him and him alone, God doesn't send epileptic fits to as "divine inspiration" God doesn't abrogate His commands, it is plain laughable to believe this man who has absolutely nothing in terms of prophecies or miracles has the nerve to call himself a prophet after the God of the bible, asking for 5% of booty in the process. And btw your comments about Mohammed's utterings after an epileptic seizure, the text in your koran you have in your hand can only be traced to 150 years after the death of Mohammed plenty of time for editing and proof reading even then there are words in it people do not understand, the translators don't know what to do with those words as in the standard of islamic miracles since it cannot be understand it is a miracle!, how about the language had simply changed? I also hope you are aware of the hadith Mohammed was boasting about when he was a young child and had two men split him open ( after yet another epileptic fit), washed his heart and put what he called "the sakinah" in him which looked like a cat, for a former jew do you honest believe that dribble that the Shekinah is a small cat?
Not so fast where does it mention this? Jesus said " Eli ELI Lama sabach thani", would you like to show us where ELI is, in the aramaic we have access to now?
What you are arguing can also be seen as building a statue of God and going to worship it, this hadith does not explicitly say hubal is not allah it just indicates allah does not reside in a statue, as I said earlier this is one of the first things Mohammed would do to impress the jews and the christians that his demonic revelations were from God. Something you should understand regarding the manner christians view Mohammed, it doesn't really matter how ordered the suras or the isnad or the matd or how many quirra if the message renegades from the perfect law of Christ a fulfillment of all God had said before it is a FALSE message, Mohammed may indeed have had some kind of message some kind of revelation, some kind of epileptic attack but it wasn't from God, his prophethood was nothing more than an excuse to loot and plunder women and booty, added with obsessive compulsive disorders like not urinating in the direction of mecca and using odd numbers of stones. At worst Mohammed was making things up as he went along, his friends would ask him for things like "is it ok to rape captured women" or "shouldn't your wives be veiled" and viola "all married women are unlawful unto you except captives your right hands possess"..."if you must talk to the wives of the prophet do so behind a veil,... and don't marry his wives after him ...such behaviour annoys the prophet..." At worst Mohammed is making it up as he went along, at best he is being spiritually deceived, by the real shaitan not the idiot who sits with his jinns in a straight line in the stars listening to the recitation of the koran or sleeping in people's ears.
Again this does not explicitly state that allah is not hubal.
Again I ask this is your advocate?
For a former jew you are basically saying the jews don't have a religion and they lost it from the onset, now Mohammed an ishmaelite 3000+ yrs has the monopoly on truth, so God couldn't protect his revelation to Moses, or Samuel, or David, or Jesus, or the disciples, do you honestly believe God would allow this to happen?
Christianity was already on the shores of the arabian peninsula, however they were heretical sects there too like the Marianites who believed Mary was part of the trinity, could this have been the source for the quran's utterance that in the last day allah will ask Jesus why Mary was part of the trinity? |
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