Christian/Muslim ThreadsThe moon god - al-ilahThe Hadith that you posted makes no indication of the such. There were 360 Idols at the Ka'abah everyone of them had their own position and people made sacrifices to them. Your interpretation of the Tabari hadith is that Abdul Muttalib, a pagan, intended to sacrifice one of his children to Allah in which at the Ka'abah sacrifices were also made to Hubal. This is your conjecture with the prestige that Hubal and Allah are the same. The flaw in your interpretation is that Hubal was not the only deity at the Ka'abah that sacrifices of children were made to. The SAHIH Al-Bukhari hadith which is superior to the Tabari hadith you quoted makes it clear that Hubal and Allah were not the same deity as Allah was proclaimed to be greater than Hubal and al-Uzza: The above hadith is clear. What you are doing would be like if I was to say " YHWH" was an Idol because in the past Jews used to worship Baal and other Idols, so YHWH and Baal are the same cause "the Tanakh or OldTestament makes it very obvious Baal was being worshipped and people were praying to YHWH (pagans) and then asking Baal for the decision.(I quoted you in the reverse of words)" Allah forbid !! There is a parallel of history with the Jews and Arabs that both fell to idolotry and adopted pagan inovated practices into their once pure religion, in which YHWH/Alllah sent a Prophet to them to warn them and to purify the religion from inovations. Irrelevant. We are following the standard of what you said : This is not a debate of if the Quran is from Allah or not. This is about what does the teaching of Quran and Sunnah say relating to the topic of this forum. We have produce numerious Quran verses and hadith that speak of the reality of Allah in the time of Muhammad contrary to your views. . Well lets see what the Quran says about this : As was said before Muhammad came and purified the religion of Abraham from its poletheism and inovated practices by the descendance of Ishmael. Obviously yoou have no Idea of how hadith are selected. If a hadith contradicts Quran it is automatically rejected. Nice wishful thinking. Prove it ! It seems you are in a bit of delima now as to Hubal and Allah. How could Muhammad elevate Allah over Hubal if the two were the same deity ? It sounds rediculous if you ask me. You can only elevate one thing over another if they are distinct. Whats so interesting here in your statemtent above is that you recognize that the hadeth makes the distinction between Allah and Hubal but earlier in you post you say : I have indeed proved it before and I will quote more Quranic verses that prove Allah was not an Idol in Makkah : Thus you said "..none of the verses and ahadith you regurgitated had anything to do with denying explicitly that allah and hubal were not one and the same." You must be have bad reading comprehension. I would leave that to the visitors of this post who are unbias to determine that. "114 epilptic utterances" ? Hmm lets see. The reports said whenever Muhammad received the revelation of the Quran it was always in public, he would fall down shaking in cold feverish sweat even in cold weather where they had to cover him up in blankets. Also his weight would increase more than three times its regular that even caused a camel that he was riding to fall to the floor when he was recieving revelation. Thus in the eyes of the pagans led them to think and believe that Muhammad was possesed in which they accused him of. In the field of medicine and the study of neurology Epilepsy are iregulare discharge impulses of the brain that burst at one time over loading the centural nervuse system causing the Body to go into a state of shock giving temporary uncontiousness. The type of epilepsy to be identified with the nature of Muhammad's condition would be a Granmal Seizure. However, there is no report of foaming of the mouth nor him loosing his tongue which are two things that occure in a Granmal Seizure. If they were able to subdue his biting of the tongue then there should have been foaming of the mouth. Also, when having a Granmal Seizure the temperture of the body does not increase to the point of where one would start to sweat but to the contrary the body temperture starts to decrease due to abnormal shock, and then again for him to sweat in cold climate makes it very doubtful. Another thing when you have Granmal Siezure there is a loss in memory after recovery, not gain. So let us look at some examples of this "epileptic untterance". Notice how the arabic of each verse all rhyme with each other ? the gender in arabic is exact no mistakes at all. Through out the whole Quran this style of rhyme occures at the ending of every verse. The same rhyming pross is in the arabic of the above verse but this time it speaks about how we are created. The above is a stage by stage discription of embryo development. I find it amazing that a man who was suppose to have an epileptic attack started to uttere these words right after. Go an show any Neurologist this and tell him the man who uttered these words did it right after having a granmal seizure, he would laugh at you silly. "no chronological bases" You are right. If you ever took the time to read the Quran from A-Z, not a part here and there, and understood the character of its non chronological order. Do you know why every chapter in the Quran is called SURAH. Surah means "Step". Thus the Quran has a 114 STEPS. Step 1 Step 2 Step 3 etc...These steps are laid down in lessons. When you go to the next step or chapter it goes more into debt in matters and subjects previously mentioned or new ones. Also the order it is in starts out with longer to shorter verses and words. The vocabulary is harder in the begining that decreases to the end. This is easier for memorization purposes. Thus the composition of the Quran was DELIBERATELY set like this with a PURPOSE void to your understand. Yes the islamic authority Tabari you use to criticize islam with is superseded by Quran and SAHIH hadith if it contradicts either one of the two. If the whole thing is a LIE then why use hadith to your discretion. This makes you a hyprocrite on double standards cause you presented your self in this manner " what about their own God given logic when applied to their scruptures? what exactly does the holy books have to say, what does the quran and sunnah have to say this should take precedence over any apologetic material. " you reneged on this. Your motive was to use that what you believe is false against another, what does that make you? I think our dialogue is over on this subject. I have laid the bases of refutation against your propaganda that you so deceitfully us when you your self acknowledge the falsness of hadiths. Oh I see. The hadiths that speak good about Muhammad are the false ones and the hadiths that speak bad or that can be interpreted as bad are the thrue ones. This is your prejudice. Again show us where the aramaic words for father, son, holy spirit is in "Bism El-Lah al Rahman al Rahim" with a dictionary. I showed the meaning of those words from Hebrew/Aramaic Lexicons and they mean no such thing as you claim. I think you have bad reading comprehension lets re-read what the article say again : "this name" not "these names" as would be refering to "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". What name (singular) they are talking about here? Also you didnt pay attention to the article very well, they said the "Bism El-Lah al Rahman al Rahim" INDICATED the holy trinity in Christianity, not its meaning per the words. "this name" is refering to "El-Lah" in "Bism El-Lah al Rahman al Rahim" in which "Bism El-Lah = Bism illah " > El-Lah = illah is the sufixed reading of the name "Allah" in Arabic with spelling transliterated variants rendered in english. Alllaah (Arabic) = Aalah (Aramaic) = Elowahh (Hebrew) ~ God Rahman (Arabic) = mRakhman (Aramaic) = Rachman (Hebrew) ~ Compassionate Above is shown the linguistical cognates of the name Alllaah in Aramaic and Hebrew Etymologically the foundation of the name Alllaah in Arabic is "llah or llaah" where the "A" is the uniform of the word due to its arabicization. An interchangeable formula of the Semitic lyh or lwh sounds lyh or lwh = layah or lawah (This is Arabic Orthagraphy) ll = y are interchangable Y and W are week radicals that are usually dropped in sound or pronounced as an “a” consonant called “alif maqsurah” when a particular word is modified. llyh = yaah or yah llwh = yaah or yah As said from before the foundation of the name Alllaah is “llaah” which is without doubt interchangeable with “yahh” or “yaahh” (The ancient Hebrew Israelite name for GOD) that is based on dialect. "llah" and "yahh" are used in the same manner in both languages by their suffixation to nouns such as "abdullah" ~ servant of llah (Alllaah)and "Eliyahh" ~ strength of yahh (Yahowah) If you dont know the Science of Semetic Linguistics then you would not understand this. |
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