Christian/Muslim ThreadsLucifers Pride!Continued... Could you show me Quranic proof that indicates that the Torah was changed when Moses died? You have given me Surah after Surah, explanation after explanation, to suggest that the former revelations (Bible) has been currupted. But all can be explained to mean something eles. What I want from you is to show me a clear verse or Surah that says something like this "they changed the book with there hands", not "they say", saying something against scripture and changing the actual words of scripture are different. MuhammedAli Wrote What about: As for Allah's books, THEY ARE STILL PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED." Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement ... (Tafsir Ibn Kathir – Abridged, Volume 2, Parts 3, 4 & 5, Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, verse 147, abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri) This is confirmed by Imam Al-Bukhari in; Sahih al-Bukhari, Kitaab Al-Tawheed, Baab Qawlu Allah Ta'ala, "Bal Huwa Qur'aanun Majeed, fi lawhin Mahfooth" (i.e. in Sahih al-Bukhari, Book "The Oneness of God", the Chapter on Surat Al-Borooj (no. 85), Verses 21, 22 saying, "Nay this is a Glorious Qur'an, (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved.") we find in a footnote between 9.642 and 643: "They corrupt the word" means "they alter or change its meaning." Yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret the word wrongly. [... and he continues to speak about how the Qur'an is preserved ...] This is the Tafseer (commentary) of Abdullah Ibn Abbas, one of the Sahaba (companions) and Mohammed's cousin. His opinions (because he is a Sahabi (companion)) are held to be above the opinions and commentaries of all other Sheikhs who are not Sahaba. Since Ibn Abbas' above reference to "They corrupt the word" quotes part of Sura 4:46, it is not only a commentary on Sura 85:22, but also on the meaning of the Quranic charge against the Jews of corrupting the scriptures. Hope the above Hadith wont be "weak". MuhammedAli Wrote First off all you say; "every mulism believes that has long Moses was present with Jewish people the Torah was unchanged, uncorrupted, but when Moses died the Torah, was corrupted". I need to see some proof of that, from ethier the Hadith or Quran Then you go on to say that the Torah thats mentioned in the Hadiths was the Old Testament and not the actual Torah. Again any evidence for that? Lets take a look at a Hadith that mentions the Torah: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi' (No. 4431)." Now the main thing I notice, when I read that Hadith is when Muhammad says: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. ... How can you explain this? If this was the Old Testament(as you say) then it must have been the one we have today. As the Torah of Moses, according to you was currupted after the death of Moses. MuhammedAli Wrote Jesus was both God and man. His mother has never been considered a God, therefore that is a error in the Quran. According to your logic donkeys give birth to donkeys, and a cow gives birth to a cow. So Mary a human, was the mother of Jesus. God is the Father of Jesus. So Jesus has a human mother, and God as His father! Like I said Jesus is both God and man. Jesus is God is without dispute. One of His names is Immanuel, which is "God with us" (Matthew 1:23). John 1:1-3 identifies Him as "the Word," and John writes in verse 14, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Jesus Himself says in John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I AM." In Jesus' prayer in John 17:5, He requests, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." Whatever this glory is that He asks to be restored, it is something He did not have as a human, but He did have when He truly was fully God. He had it before He was born of Mary, did not have it during His physical life, and had it returned to Him upon His resurrection and ascension. Philippians 2:5-7 provides the background for Christ's incarnation: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men." The first word we need to consider is form in verse 6. It is the Greek morphe, for which English has no exact equivalent. Unlike "form" in English, morphe does not mean "shape." It is a philosophical term that means "the outward expression of an inner essence." Jesus is God. MuhammedAli Wrote Did God die on the cross? For a moment, we have to say yes. Because Jesus died on the cross and Jesus was God. He died. And, the Bible says He died, over and over, and over, and over, and over, doesn’t it? He died. He died. He died, and He was Jesus Christ. You cannot separate Jesus Christ’s humanness from His deity. You cannot cut Him up. He was Jesus Christ, the God-man and He died. So, yes, God died on the cross. MuhammedAli Wrote There is a very interesting passage on pages 103 - 104 of the Sirat. It deals with the Gospel of John. I will quote it in full. " Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary states in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following. It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary: "He that hateth me hath hated the Lord. And if I had not done in their presence works which none other before me did, they had not had sin: but from now they are puffed up with pride and think that they will overcome me and also the Lord. But the word that is in the law must be fulfilled, "They hated me without a cause" (i.e., without reason). But when the Comforter has come whom God will send to you from the Lord's presence, and the spirit of truth which will have gone froth from the Lord's presence he (shall bear) witness of me and ye also, because ye have been with me from the beginning. I have spoken to you about this that ye should not be in doubt. (1) The Munahhemana (God bless and preserve him!) in Syriac is Muhammad; in Greek he is the paraclete." Guillaume's note (1) for this passage out of the Sirat says: "The passage quoted is John 15.23 ff. It is interesting to note that the citation comes from the Palestinian Syriac Lectionary and not from the ordinary Bible of the Syriac-speaking Churches. The text is corrupt in one or two places; e.g. the phrase "puffed up with pride and think that they will overcome me". Batiru is an obvious corruption of nazaru, which agrees with the Syriac and underlying Greek. Wazannu seems to be another attempt to make sense of the passage. The next word I am unable to explain. The most interesting word is that rendered "Comforter" which we find in the Palestinian Lectionary, but all other Syriac versions render "paraclete", following the Greek. This word was well established in the Hebrew - and Aramaic - speaking world. The menahhemana in Syriac means the life giver and especially one who raises from the dead. Obviously such a meaning is out of place here and what is meant is one who consoles and comforts people for the loss of one dear to them. This is the meaning in the Talmud and Targum. It ought to be pointed out that by the omission of the words "that is written" before "in the law" quite another meaning is given to the prophecy. The natural rendering would be "the word that concerns the Namus must be fulfilled". To Muslims the Namus was the angel Gabriel. Furthermore, the last words are translated as the ordinary Arab reader would understand tashukku; but in Syrian Arabic it could bear the meaning of the gospel text "stumble". See further my article in Al-Andalus, xv, faxc. 2 (1950) 289-96." Note also how Ibn Ishaq refers to "what John the Apostle sent down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary" Obviously, Ibn Ishaq recognized John's Gospel as authentic. He thinks he quotes from it in support of Muhammad, and has nothing critical to say of it. MuhammedAli Wrote I was actually reffering to the Arabic Gospels of the Infancy. Lets take a look: From the Quran - Sura 19 - "Mary", verses 28 - 33 Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her: 'Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot.' She made a sign to them, pointing to the child. But they replied: 'How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?' Whereupon he spoke and said: 'I am the servant of God. He has given me the Book and ordained me a prophet. His blessing is upon me wherever I go, and He has exhorted me to be steadfast in prayer and to give alms as long as I shall live. He has exhorted me to honor my mother and has purged me of vanity and wickedness. Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.' (Dawood's translation). The source of this story is "The Arabic Infancy Gospel". There exists a whole collection of stories and fables classified as "Infancy Gospels". Later ones were based upon earlier ones. The Arabic Infancy Gospel is based upon earlier Infancy Gospels were created from the second century onward. Here is the quote from The Arabic Infancy Gospel: "We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world." You see the similarities between them? Again: Sura 19 - Mary: verses 22 - 26 Thereupon she conceived him, and retired to a far-off place. And when she felt the throes of childbirth she lay down by the trunk of a palm-tree, crying: 'Oh, would that I had died and passed into oblivion!' But a voice from below cried out to her: 'Do not despair. Your Lord has provided a brook that runs at your feet, and if you shake the trunk of this palm-tree it will drop fresh ripe dates in your lap. Therefore eat and drink and rejoice; and should you meet any mortal say to him: "I have vowed a fast to the Merciful and will not speak with any man today."' Sura 23 - The Believers, verse 50: We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign to mankind, and gave them a shelter on a peaceful hillside watered by a fresh spring. These two verses relate to the birth of Jesus. The parallel is found in "The Gospel of Pseudo Matthew", as follows: Now on the third day of their journey, as they went on, it happened that blessed Mary was wearied by the too great heat of the sun in the desert, and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: "I should like to rest a little in the shade of this tree." And Joseph led her quickly to the palm and let her dismount from her animal . And when blessed Mary had sat down she looked up at the top of the palm tree and saw that it was full of fruits, and said to Joseph: "I wish someone could fetch some of these fruits of the palm tree." And Joseph said to her: "I wonder that you say this; for you see how high this palm tree is, and (I wonder ) that you even think about eating of the fruits of the palm. I think rather of the lack of water, which already fails us n the skins, and we have nothing with which we can re-fresh ourselves and the animals." Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: "Bend down your branches, O Tree and refresh my mother with your fruit." And immediately at this command the palm bent its head down to the feet of blessed Mary, and they gathered from it fruits with which they all refreshed themselves.....Then Jesus said to it: "Raise yourself, O palm .....and let the waters flow so that we may quench our thirst from it." And immediately it raised itself, and there began to gush out by its root a fountain of water very clear, fresh and completely bright. [34] The Quran - Sura 3 - "The Imrans:, verses 37 - 37 Remember the words of Imran's wife. 'Lord,' she said, 'I dedicate to Your service that which is in my womb. Accept if from me. You alone hear all and know all.' And when she was delivered of the child, she said: 'Lord, I have given birth to a daughter' - God well knew of what she was delivered: the male is not like the female - 'and have called her Mary. Protect her and all her descendants from Satan, the Accursed One.' Her Lord graciously accepted her. He made her grow a goodly child and entrusted her to the care of Zacharias. Whenever Zacharias visited her in the Shrine he found that she had food with her. 'Mary,' he said, 'where is this food from?' 'It is from God,' she answered. 'God gives without stint to whom He will.' Here is the story from "The Protevangelium of James". And behold an angel of the Lord came to her and said: "Anna, Anna, the Lord has heard your prayer. You shall conceive and bear, and your offspring shall be spoken of in the whole world." And Anna said: "As the Lord my God lives, if I bear a child, whether male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall serve him all the days of its life."..... .....And her six months were fulfilled, as the angel had said: in the seventh month Anna brought forth. And she said to the midwife: "What have I brought froth?" and the midwife said: "A female." And Anna said: "My soul is magnified this day." And she laid it down. And when the days were fulfilled, Anna purified herself from her childbed and gave suck to the child, and called her name Mary..... .....When she (Mary) was two years old, Joachim said to Anna: "Let us bring her up to the Temple of the Lord that we may fulfill the promise which we made, lest the Lord send some evil upon us and our gift become unacceptable." And Anna replied let us wait until the third year that the child may not long after her father and mother. And Joachim said: "Very well." And when the child was three years old, Joachim said: "Let us ......in order that the child may not turn back and her heart be enticed away from the Temple of the Lord." And he did so until they went up to the Temple of the Lord. And the priest, (Zacharias) took her and kissed her and blessed her, saying: "The Lord has magnified your name among all generations; because of you the Lord at the end of the days will manifest his redemption to the children of Israel. .....And Mary was in the Temple nurtured like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel. Sura 3 - The Imrans, verse 44 This is an account of a divine secret. We reveal it to you. You were not present when they cast lots to see which of them should have charge of Mary; nor were you present when they argued about her. From "The History of Joseph the Carpenter", by From "The Apocryphal New Testament, by Elliot, 114: Mary was being brought up in the Temple till she was twelve years old. The priests decided to give her to a husband. The lot fell on Joseph. A similar story is found in another Infancy Gospel, the "The Nativity of Mary" Now there was among the rest Joseph, of the house and family of David, a man of great age: and when all brought their rods, according to the order, he alone withheld his. Wherefore, when nothing in conformity with the divine voice appeared, the high priest thought it necessary to consult God a second time; and He answered, that of those who had been designated, he alone to whom the virgin ought to be espoused had not brought his rod. Joseph, therefore, was found out. For when he had brought his rod, and the dove came from heaven; and settled upon the top of it, it clearly appeared to all that he was the man to whom the virgin should be espoused. Sura 3 - The Imrans, verse 49: (also refer to 5:110, 111) He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird..... "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas" is the source for the above Quranic quote. "The child Jesus, when 5 years of age, was playing on the road by a dirty stream of running water; and having brought it all together into ditches, immediately made it pure and clean; by saying a single word. Then having moistened some earth, he made of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath day when he did these things. There were many other children playing with him. Now a Jew, seeing what Jesus did, that he was playing on the Sabbath day, went his way to (Jesus') father Joseph. He said, "Behold, your son is at the stream of dirty water, and having taken up some mud, has made of it twelve sparrows, thus desecrating the Sabbath. On this Joseph went to the spot, and cried out, "Why did you do these things on the Sabbath day which it is not lawful to do?" Jesus then clapped his hands at the sparrows and cried aloud to them, "Go off!". So they, clucking, flew away. The Jews seeing it were astonished, and went and told their rulers what they had seen Jesus do." We can clearly see that Muhammed took well known Arabian Infancy Gosples and inserted them into the supposed "revelations" from God. The "real" Bible says: 2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. MuhammedAli Wrote In the Quran Muhammad made error by identifying Mary as Aaron's sister. When presented with this error Muhammad created an ad hoc explanation to cover his mistake. Lets examine the following: Arabian Christians living in a town called Najran who had heard the stories of Islam. One Quranic passage about Mary and Jesus struck them as strange, Surah 19:27, 28 "Carrying the child, Jesus, she Mary came to her people, who said to her: "Mary, this is indeed a strange thing! Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger, nor was your mother a harlot." The above verse states that after Mary gave birth to Christ, her townsfolk reproached her. They thought she was not married, and assumed that she committed sexual sin because she gave birth. In their reproach, they called her, "Sister of Aaron". This mistake was discerned by the Arabic Christians of Najran. There is a record of them exposing Muhammad's mistake about Mary. It's found in the Hadiths. In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, #5326, says: "When I came to Najran, they the Christians of Najran asked me: You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger I asked him about that, and he said: "The people of the old age used to give names to their persons after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them."" [Sahih Muslim, translated by Abdul Siddiqi]. When Muhammad was confronted with the mistake of confusing Mary as the sister of Aaron he said that Mary was called the "sister of Aaron" because Aaron was a pious person and Mary was called after Aaron. Muhammad is covering up a mistake with a lie. MuhammedAli Wrote “Horus” was the name of two gods “Horus the Elder” and “Horus the Child”. Later they were regarded as one god. Horus the Elder was represented either as a falcon or as a human with a falcon’s head. He was the sky god of Upper Egypt and brother of the gods Osiris, Isis and Set (the god of evil). Osiris and his wife Isis were the parents of Horus the Child. In the myth Set murdered Osiris, and Horus the Child later killed Set. (Cavendish 1980; Graves 1968) In the myth the murder of Osiris happened this way: Set invited Osiris to a banquet and offered a gift of a wooden chest to anyone of the right size to fit exactly inside. The chest was designed to fit only Osiris. After Osiris was inside the chest was closed and set adrift and Osiris died. Isis the wife later found the chest and posthumously conceived a son - Horus the Child - by Osiris. Set then found the body of Osiris and cut him into 14 pieces and scattered them throughout Egypt. Isis searched and found the pieces and, using magic, fitted them back together and in that way resurrected Osiris. Horus the Child was then born and later took revenge against Set for his father’s (Osiris’) murder. Its Just a myth. I will leave you with this for now: Sura 29:46 (AI-Ankabut) says: "And do not argue with the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) except in the best way, unless it be with those among them who do evil. Say: 'We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To Him we surrender ourselves.'" Peace |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame