Christian/Muslim ThreadsLucifers Pride!If I am correct I had read somewhere and even heard from Ahmed Deedat that some where in the Bible Jesus said all authority is given onto me, indicating that ALL authority is not his but it was given to him by someone else, and that someone else is God Again this is a taylor made suite for those who are ignorant of the facts, Jesus never in his earthly life claimed to be God, this taylor made suite is propogating a ready believed doctrine about Jesus, neither Jesus said anything in this letter nor it was written by Jesus, it’s the others who are forming their own opinions about him. Not forgetting that the author of this letter is also the author of the barrowing statement Cretan’s are liars, which implies that the author accepted this statement has genuine otherwise why would he incoproate this statement without a criticism of it, now coming to the point, was he lieing that Jesus is the Saviour, or he was lieing when he barrowed the statement without criticism, heads, he was a liar, tails, the statement is false, truth, the author is a Liar. Just keeping the barrowing theory in mind the vocabulury reminds me that this letter was written in Crete, and that was hot bed of Paganism and the “… our saviour …” is indicating that there where other saviours, but why did the author had to mention the name of his saviour, because almost all the saviours had same believes has Christianity, so the author had to differanciate between his saviour and other saviours. Not forgetting that almost all the scholars are in aggreeement that epistle of Hebrews, 1st, 2nd Timothy, Titus, Colossians, thessolians, ephesians, all are fogeries propogated in the name of Paul. Perhaps I am dumb even blind, perhaps you are too, but my dumbness and blindness is not without any reason, God can not be seen at anytime, nor one can see God and live, because what a Eye can see what a mind can perceive is not god, that is created by God, and the created was at some point non-existant in any form. We believe that God is not limited but soon has a object comes into out vision we can see it, we can see the size of it, we can determine aprox weight, we can determine from what material it is made of, how it was made, by whom it was made, how long did it took to make this, how long can it last, all those quesiton can be answered with our human ability, thus we know that its limited. But God doesn’t come in any of these, if we can see god we will have rough estimate how he looks like we will be able to dermne what material is god made of, and so on once we can do that god is limited, and God is not limited. How do we know Jesus was not God, because he had a body, he ate food, a infinite being dependent of finite things eg food, this only proves he was finite being from the mankind, he hid from his enemies, prayed to God, all the characteristics of humans, therefore he was human. But he was not like all humans, he performed miracles healed people, gave back life to the dead by Allah’s permission, MADE BIRDS from clay and breathed into them life by Allahs permission healed the sick, SPOKE in childhood in the deffence of his mother, so he was human but a unique human, but this doesn’t meant he is god, because there where other humans who are also unique has Jesus Phiroah’s Magicians, Moses, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammed (pbuh) and many others they all performed things which are un-explainable in sciencetific terms, they either all performed Magic or Miracles, we say the phiraohs Magicians made the sticks into snakes, so did Moses, how can we distinguish from sorcery and a Miracle, we cant just by looking the “M” , but if we know the character of the person then we will know if he has performed a miralce or Magic, if the person is evil then if he turns water into wine it will mean that he performed magic, but if the person is with a perfect character, saintly person then it will be a Miracle. Now we know there are other humans just like Jesus who perfromed Miracles like Jesus, and they where not god nor they did claim to be god, they said they are prophets. You may argue that but they didn’t do what Jesus did, they didn’t give life to the dead and so on … to answer that I will say each prophet was in a situation and he perfomed a miracle befitting that situation. Just to illusterate my point, Fir-awun’s sorcers made sticks into snakes, and supposedly Moses made a cow do three cartwheels, a back-flip, coupled with jumping-axe kick, fallowed by a perfect landing in splits position; would that have proved that Moses (pbuh) has the truth? No! the sorcers would have made a donkey speak like a cow and make the donkey do the moon walk and sing better the britney spears, that wouldn’t had proved that there magic is better then Moses’s (pbuh), they could had carry on doing trick all day, but to no result. And Moses being the Messenger has not time for this, so when the sorcers made the sticks into snakes, Moses (pbuh) with the permission of Allah made this staff into a snake, just turning his staff to a snake would not have proved the point of Moses (pbuh), the snake of Moses eats the snakes of Magicians to prove the superiority of Moses (pbuh) over his oppenants, any way this was the Quranic account of the story of Fir-awun and Moses, even a slight SIDESTEP would have proven fatal to the truth of Moses (pbuh), SO HE STICKS TO THE SITUATION presented to him, if the situation was different, like making the dead walk, Moses would have made the dead walk also, but the situation was not the same. Further prophets didn’t repeat the miracles of there predecessors, for few reasons, one is to illusterate the point that Awu-liyah-Allah (Friends of Allah) can perform miracles, second to indicate what sort of miracles they can perform, third because the adherants of Prophet will make claim superiority of there prophet only on the basis of Miracles, but superiority is not on miracles or how many pies one can eat, superiority is of Taqwah (righteous deeds, prayer etc, that’s why in the Quran Allah says to the Muslims to say we make no distingtion among them, we believe they are all equally derserving of our respect, and praise, the rest is with Allah. Ok I started from Jesus was not god because … he was human, a unique human, not only unique human, and words for these unique human Prophets, Messengers, and there is a hadith in sahih al-bukhari that not all Prophets where Messengers, nor all Messengers where prophets, this means althose are prophets are the ones who fallowed a particular way of life and fallowed it without changing it. Messnger is one who has brought New Book or new code of ethics or living, THE OPINION OF SCHOLARS DIFFERS ON THIS, and I am fully convinced that Jesus was a prophet for given reasons. And no he want Liar, Lunatic, HE SIMPLY WAS NOT GOD, ONLY A PROPHET. Let me give you reasons why I have not accepted your explaination regarding Jesus being sent only to Israel, I am quite sad to think that you feel that I am ignoring your responses without real reason, I am sorry if you feel this way, I have very good reasons to believe this. If I don’t present evidence and just make a statement that doesn’t mean I don’t have the evidence with me or I am forcing Quranic verses on your Bible, I have no interest in doing such a thing, only reason I don’t present evidence against what you have said is because the post was getting longer and longer, I just wanted to keep my typing limited, but in this response I have written quite extensively on each issue, so I would explain to you what are the reasons why I reject your explanation has valid, I never ignore anything, I like to respond to point by point, sentence by sentence, that’s my style, I am not afraid to admit my fault when there is one, nor I deceive anyone, I have no such intentions, nor I honey coat the teachings of Islam, Islam doesn’t need me nor my lies, nor my deceptions it can do without me and without my arguments. I belong to the sufi thought of Islam, where a person Niyah (intention) counts just has your action. And I really believe that my mare arguments my reasoning, my ability to write means nothing, doenst matter how perfect the argument is, a person will not be guided by it, unless Allah wills. If that was the case then millions of Christian would have converted to Islam on purely on rational basis (because of trinity), I wouldn’t have to give you reasons, I wouldn’t have to give you biblical evidence, you would have rejected your own religion in your own mind purely on intellecual basis, but people don’t, a powerfull evidence that guidance comes from Allah, and not from arguments and debates and not from books. Any way You stated that Jesus first came to the Israel and then to the world, in response to you I quoted you this verse:“But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) now the case is that you feel that I have ignored your response, no I didn’t, why write ten pages about a issue which I can reffute with few lines, that’s my policy! If Jesus had said I was sent to Israel, I would not have had any problem with accepting your response has valid and Biblical based, but he said I was ONLY sent to the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF Israel, this is a clear contradiction with all what you have said, in one verse Jesus is saying that I was ONLY in other incidents he is instructing his deciples to baptise them in the name of the father son and the holy spirit (in the earliest bibles the word is Water). The word used in the Matthew 15:24 for ONLY is “Ei” and it means: although , if, no, only , suppose , though, unless, unless, until, whatever, whether, whoever. Thayer and Smith, The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon". OL: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... ersion=nas The only meaning which fits in the phrase “I was ******** sent to the Lost sheep of houst of Israel.” Is ONLY, the same word is used in various other place in the Gosple of Matthew 14:17, 19:17, and 21:19. Now either Jesus didn’t say that or he Did, or the Gosple author attributed to Jesus a false statement, he said ONLY, if he didn’t say that then it would have made sense. I don’t really need to respond to anyother passage of the Bible at all regarding this issue, because this one statement contradicts others, either Jesus was lieing then or the Gosple write has made Jesus lie or all the other statements are false, you can only have one. Well I am done, its not my best, but what can I say, I am busy At least it didnt take me a week right? Peace! Surely this was not my best at all, I am so tired of writing that I have deliberately left out so much that I could quote, from sholars, external sources, and so much more that I just got fedup with writing. Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. You see friend, HE, Jesus did in fact heal her daughter, unlike the claim made in your post, that HE didn't. I never made a claim that Jesus didn’t heal the woman, show me where I said that, I only said he jesus said that he was only sent to the last sheep of Israel. I just have reaslised that serious debating his a headache, and from now on unless I get a response worthy of my response I will not reply, but I will read any response that is posted here. I just would like to say at the end that I have not intention of misleading anybody deliberately of excidentally, if I had made a mistake or said something which is not accurate everybody is welcome to point it out. May Allah show you the straight path. Ali |
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