twohumble wrote:Nick, there is good indication that there was death before the flood. I will elaborte if needed, but consider this. When Adam was told '...eat the fruit and you shall surely die'....you didnt' see Adam saying: "What is die?, I don't get it God, what exactly will happen?" No, Adam was not confused at all by this term.
I suppose God couldn't have given Adam an understanding of what the word meant even though he'd never seen it?
And who's to say that Adam didn't ask God what "death" meant? Just because it's not written in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm sure Adam had to go to the bathroom at some point, but there's no record of that in the Bible. Am I supposed to believe that he just held it?
twohumble wrote:In addition, and more importantly, nothing in Genesis requires there to be 'no death',
Except that death is a direct consequence of sin. Consequences come after things, not before.
nick wrote:Yup, you're right. Also Abel sacrificed lambs prior to the flood.
Nobody ever said there was no death before the flood, just no meat-eaters.
But here's another one that's bothering me. The general consensus from a biblical point of view is that meat eaters only came about after the fall. Genesis 1 vs 30 seems to say that animals were all veggies initially? [yes/no/maybe?]
Yes.
- Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
That seems to say that everything was created as a vegetarian to me. Does it not to you?
nick wrote:However, obviously, we've dated meat eating fossils from many millions of years before man came on the scene, i.e. before the "fall".
....using dating methods devised by sinful, fallible man, many of whom are trying everything to discount the Bible.
twohumble wrote:I would argue that mans fall had nothing to do with physical death whatever. Only spiritual death.
And I would argue that man's fall was related to both spiritual and physical death. Adam died spiritually the moment he sinned. And he was condemned to die physically that very same moment, even though the completion of that physical death was not until much later.
twohumble wrote:Death before mans fall took place, and there is no preclusion to this in biblical text.
Except that death is a direct consequence of sin. Consequences come after things, not before. (is there an echo in here?)
twohumble wrote:In fact, I think there is scriptural support for death to have existed before the fall
I'd love to see it. I've never heard anyone make this statement before.
nick wrote:I'd go so far as to suggest the Bible states all animals were veggie even after the creation of man.
And you would be correct. The Bible does make this statement. Why, other than your dating methods, don't you want to believe it?