Christian/Muslim ThreadsLucifers Pride!As-salam First of all your above statement does not either explain what i have said nor reffutes it, infact in further proves my point that if father and son are equal, in which way they are equal, if one of the three knows everthing, then you will aggree for the other two to be equal with the father also must know what Father knows, otherwise they are not equal. Like I said if one is alknowing that means all of them are allknowing if one doesnt then he is not equal, and if he is not equal with the other two then the father and the holy spirit can be One (theoratically speaking or Christianly Speaking) but the Son can not be one with the other Two (which are super glued to make One), this will leave us with a Two entities comprimised to make One, while the Son is not the same has the Father or Holy Spirit, therefore he becomes a different entity, which can not be part of the other Two (One), due to the fact that he is not all-knowing. IN a different perspective, we know that Jesus didnt knew about that day, and the christian beleife that they all are equal, will imply that if Jesus didnt knew of that day, then nor the Father, Holy Spirit where aware of that day, which is even more damning for the Christian theology, because it only doesnt prove the Son's impossibillity of being God, it also disproves the other Two (One) being God, even the Father has lost His al-knowing status, due to ignorance of Jesus, because what Jesus doesnt know, nor does the Father. Or we have another alternative, that Jesus knew about that day, but didnt tell the questioner, this will indicate that Jesus lied, because he being in the form of man was still god Col. (2:9 s), and he was has christians beleive al-knowing has the father and the Holy Spirit. Now we have Son has liar, and due to the Christian beleife that these three are equal, this means three of them are altogather liars. Before you take the liberty to respond try really hard to understand what i have written. ops: Its a bit complicated ! Read this carefully, First of all if Jesus really new everything then why was he questioning Peter about him loving Jesus, but thats beside the point. Here the Matter is Peter's reply "you know all things" and you say because Peter says Jesus new all things, that means he does know all things, does what peter say, has to be truth? No ofcourse not, Peter doenst know that Jesus doesnt know of that day, or about the fig tree incident, we should judge Jesus on his words not on the words of Peter. Lets suppose Peter was ignorant of this fact, but Jesus wasnt, so if Jesus was honest he would have told him look man i dont know everything, but i tell you why he didnt. YOu alledge Jesus didnt stop Peter when he said you know all things and didnt rectify him, that means Jesus was God-Man. well the reason why he didnt stop him because there was no need for it, Peter didnt mean literally all things, its a way of speaking. Let me explain to you this with a analogy, you will understand it better this way, hopefully. Your parents are very strict they dont let you smoke, but you buy cigrates and smoke them hiding with your mates, one day you return home, and your father is standing with a basefull bat, and calls you and asks you well that person came and told me that you was smoking down the road in the car park, what will you do (not you literally but generally), the person will say honestly daddy, i was with my mate, he knows Everything, honestly daddy i wasnt smoking, here ask Tim I wasnt smoking. Does this boy means literally that Tim knows everything about the universe, and how the universe was created, how the plants grow, does he really mean that this boy is Al-knowing like God, ofcourse not. What the boy means here is that look daddy he knows everything that we did today, togahter and you can ask him about what we did today. The word which i didnt use the the context, we need to understand the statement of Peter in the context, statement of Peter has to be understood in its context, in the context of there Peter's relationship with Jesus, how Peter fallowed Jesus, how honest he was in the fallowing Jesus, etc; you dont need to be God to know about the character of someone who has been hanging aroung with you for years, you will become aware of the people and there intentions when live with them and talk to them, and there behaviour toward you, you know if the person really loves you or hates you, or has anyother motives, so when Peter said you know all things, was reffering to the past dealings with Jesus, how sincere he was, honest and so on, and Jesus knowing all this about Peter also knew how sincere Peter was, and when Jesus asked three times the same question, Peter appealed to his sound character and the sincerity he had shown, jus has the boy said Tim knows everything, yet he didnt knew everything, in the same way Peters statement was not meaning all things. I hope this has put the Biblical verse in its historical perpective. First of all, i am going to retract two of my earlier statements which i made, that Marry is part of Trinity, no where in the Quran Mary is stated to be part of Trinity, Surah 5:76 mentions Trinity but doesnt mention any member of the Trinity, secondly the statement that the word Trinity is not in the original Quran was a inaccurate, it seems that I have been ignorant of this fact due to my stupidty. No the Quran does not use the words "Wala taqooloo salasah." which means dont say three, but the Quran in Surah 5:73 uses the words "wala-qad kafir-allah zeena kaloo in-nallah-ha salisooh Salisah" which does mean "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity:" And before i further move on I will like to point out abut this verse: "And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God? He (Jesus) will say: Glory to thee, never could I say what I had no right (to say)" Surah 5:119 The above from the Quran shows a clear error in the understanding of the Holy Trinity! If the Quran itself doent understand the Trinity how can we expect Muslims too?" First of all Quran never said Mary is part of Trinity, thats your assumption. I have my sources confirmed that Catholics do beleive that Mary is the Mother of God therefore they have the images statues to which they pray: please read this Catholic creed link written by your very own Pope Paul II: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm11.htm and when you have finished that one then please make your way to here: http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Doctrine/trinity.htm and after that all I can say is, get help my friend. Nope it doesnt make a difference because the full redering of the verse is: "wala-qad kafir-allah zeena kaloo in-nallah-ha salisooh Salisah, Wama min illahi ilalaa illaa-huv Wahid," which clearily what the translator has translated, to further check my accuracy i have checked the translations of Arthur Jeffery, and Rodwell, both state that same. Sorry to give you canon powder to fire against me, but this was on of those silly mistakes which i make quite often, but it wasnt canon powder at all, even if i assume your assumption is right still the very same meaning sticks no tricks needed. What the word is not in the bible, nor the Doctrine is in the bible yet you have concocted a whole new hellish doctrine attributing to a monotheist prophet who beleived in One God has all the prophets, you are honest with translation but be honest with Jesus, he didnt teach this doctrine, nor he had heard of it. We have many incidents in the Bible where Jesus is being questioned on his authority, but if on this Trinity doctrine he has not been challenged, his authority was chelllenged in everyway but not on Trintiy, if he had ever preached or even uttered a word which would pollute the One-ness of One God, this would have been enough evidence for the jews to label him a apostate a pagan, a demon possed man, they didnt need anymore evidence they would have crucified him only because of Trinity, alone. They might have beleived in him in everyother way but they would have chopped him up into itsy bitsy pieaces if they had heard the wind of Jesus beleiving in tri-une god, or preaching something like that, and we find no evidence against him regarding Trinity or anything. No where Jesus said I am God, or even Son of God, again and again its his enemies that call him Son of God, do you claim to be Son of God, its nothing in the bible which proves the Godness of Jesus it proves contrary. [quote]"And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God? He (Jesus) will say: Glory to thee, never could I say what I had no right (to say)" Surah 5:119 If the Quran takes the trinity in this form then shouldnt you? Why hasn't the Quran clearly condemed The Christian Trinity of Father,Son and Holy Spirit? Can the Quran itself explain to us why Mary is in the Trinity[/quote]? This has not been done for numerous reasons first the Quran is the Book of Signs, it indicates a path, now its upon to the travler to what he finds on the path. Trinity historically has had many forms, we have trinity of the Hidus, we have Trinity of the Pagan Arabs, Trinity of Christians, and this Christian Trinity had many forms has well,and thatst not it WE also have Greek Trinity,here is a detail quote: Jesus Christ is not God 1975 Victor Paul Wierwille "Long before the founding of Christianity the idea of a triune god or a god-in-three persons was a common belief in ancient religions. Although many of these religions had many minor deities, they distinctly acknowledged that there was one supreme God who consisted of three persons or essences. The Babylonians used an equilateral triangle to represent this three-in-one god, now the symbol of the modern three-in-one believers." "The Hindu trinity was made up of the gods Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. The Greek triad was composed of Zeus, Athena and Apollo. These three were said by the pagans to 'agree in one.' One of the largest pagan temples built by the Romans was constructed at Ballbek (situated in present day Lebanon) to their trinity of Jupiter, Mercury and Venus. In Babylon the planet Venus was revered as special and was worshipped as a trinity consisting of Venus, the moon and the sun. This triad became the Babylonian holy trinity in the fourteenth century before Christ."
So how many Trinity's was Quran going to reffute, its gets boring reading all-over the same thing, Hindu Trinity is False, Christian Trinity is False etc; so Allah strikes out all the Trinity's with one sentence, and thats the perfection of the Quran, only Quran has whats needed nothing extra, nothing-less, everyword has been finely tuned and polished and then put in its place. Let me tell you why she was called the Mother of God, because when people began to deny the godship of Jesus on the basis, that how can a woman can give birth to God, so this idea got around many christians, and they began reject Christianity, that fact is that when some people became aware of the verse of the Bible in the book of Job chapter 25 verse 4-6 we read the fallowing: "How then can a man be compared with God?Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Even when that stare are impure His sight. How much less is a man that is a worm? and the son of man which is a worm?" Because of this verse many christian began to deny the perfect-ness of Jesus because this verse clearly states that any man that is born of a woman can not be clean, pure. So the church need to prove to the christians look Mary is no normal woman so they raised her status to the mother of god, weather she was or not thats a different matter, but they just concucted a new doctrine to suite the new problem. The problem was that simple minded Christian understood only one logic look a horse gives birth to a horse, cow to a cow, dog to a dog, monkey to monkey, human to human, so when they where told that mary a woman gave birth to God naturally people thought it has none-sense, they knew that Jesus was son of God the Father, but Mother was missing, so to cater for the new thinking the christians made the Mother of Jesus to Mother of God, so now the simple christian can also understand that god gives birth to god, thats how you raised the status of mary from normal woman to God. And you say you dont prau to marry, hwo do you say hail marry! hail marry! isnt that praying to her, when catholics sin they go the the priest for confession, the priest says well say sorry this time and praise marry, why Marry! Is she greater then God? You consider her equal status with the Father, you worship her, you worship her images icons, statues, and thats polytheism. First of all again Quran doesnt mention Marry being part of Trinity, it only says that Christians pray to her, and you pray to her has Mother of God, to fool the simple person Mother of God is also God, therefore Jesus was God, now admit it missionary you pray to marry has God. And finally with regards to the contradiction of Jesus saying i was only send to the lost sheep of israel. It doenst matter how many verses you quote from the OT or NT it will still not be resolved, becaause he himself said that he was only sent to the lost sheep of israel, when you explain to me with a genuine reason why he said that i will consider your other verses, otherwise i will consider his this statement has a contradiction to the many you quoted. Not just that i can just reffute all of the quotes you have given, but i wont bather with that for thereason this is not needed yet, first you set the statement straight why Jesus said he was ONLY sent for the Jews, to that woman, or was he lieing to her, what was the reason. only then i will futher expound on this matter any further. YOu have alot to do now, so start with it. Ali :roll: |
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