This is the parallel your scholars have been drawing to the Quran (in order to give Christians a better understanding of what the Quran is), and it is the only thing in Christianity that like the orthodox Muslim view of the Quran – represents God’s eternal word directly expressed/manifest in the form of the finite creation! (I hope this finally gets to you by now)
But the Qur'an doesn't contain the Will of God in its entirety, it's a record of a portion thereof, a limited record between two sheets. How on Earth do you aim to compare that to Jesus (pbuh) who you say IS God's Will completely? Or do you say Jesus is 65 kilograms of God's will? I also don't go buy what Muslim say unless it's derived from the Qur'an or Sunnah. They can draw as many metaphors as they'd like, that doesn't make it an Orthodox Islamic belief. I hope that's clear, or else let them bring evidence from the Qur'an itself or Prophetic tradition to justify their comparison. Otherwise that's their own opinion, not creed. That's the difference between Islam and Christianity, creed can't be formulated by members of the faith.
We are concerned with logically deducing the nature of your Quran, from the very conclusions made by Islamic scholars concerning the Quran – “It is the direct expression of the eternal divine will/word in the form of a finite creation – namely a book.”
Yes, it's a direct expression of the Will of God, 600 pages of it, not the infinite Will which is constantly causing everything to exist and occur in the world. It's not a hard concept, bro. You're trying to make the Qur'an out to be a transcript of God, which it isn't, it's a revelation of a portion of His Will, the portion He WILLED mankind to receive.
I’m sorry, but that’s not consistent with what your scholars are asserting.
I'm also sorry bro, there aren't enough credentials in the world for any Muslim to devise their own metaphor and claim it to be part of one's religious aqidah (faith). I mean you can quote Muslim men till you're blue in the face, but unless they derive any religious principle from the Qur'an or Sunnah, it's an innovation or verisimilitude. "But but that guy said…" So let him bring his evidence, not his opinion.
Christians and Jews believe their scripture “reflects the absolute truth” as a result of its divine inspiration, but this does not make scripture divine in nature – its not considered the eternal speech of God as the Quran is.
Well obviously since the texts have been irreparably paraphrased. But "Thou shalt not kill" isn't considered the word of God in the Torah?
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UT ... d%22&meta=
While you ponder that, here's a link about what one of those Muslim Scholars said:
http://www.twf.org/Library/Miracle.html
Notice how if the Qur'an is the word of God as Jesus (pbuh) is believed to have been the word of God, the revelation of the Qur'an states that Jesus was the Messenger of God. Contrarily, the belief that Jesus is the word of God comes solely from the BIBLE, which is not the word of God as you admitted, and unfortunately is the only text available that claims to have what Jesus said, except of course for the divine revelation of the Qur'an which tells us what he said.
So my question to you is, how can you derive your belief in Jesus (pbuh) being the word of God from a book that admits it is a paraphrasing of men? That's like claiming that something is divine not from it's own proof, but by hearsay.
which would open parallels between the Quran and any of the Jewish/Christian scripture and even to the prophets/apostles, but there is a GOOD REASON for why they emphasized that the parallel between Christ and the Quran is exclusive. (which i hope becomes even more clear by the end of this post).
Yeah I finally get it. Muslim belief is based on the "word of God," a text of divine revelation, whereas no other scripture claims to have the "word of God". Christians, however, believe that Jesus was the "word of God" and therefore God. Why? Because this is what they read in a text which they all admit is not the "word of God".
Your Quran in contrast is considered a temporal/finite direct expression/manifestation of what is considered eternal and emanating from God – maybe you should reconsider your logic on why the Quran does not have the right to be worshipped.
No, because the Qur'an does not contain ALL of God's Will. God's will is perpetual, it's responsible for sustaining the entire Universe as we speak, this isn't being constantly dictated as the Qur'an, because the Qur'an is a portion of this Will, the portion that was revealed to mankind.
Great, but your Quran is not a creation now is it – according to orthodox Islam it is UNCREATED (which is what the 4-5 quotes i've been pasting from Islamic resrouces, have been declaring this whole time), it is merely being temporarily expressed through creation.
Yes, the Qur'an contains an exact Truth and portion of the Will of God. This is what is meant by "uncreated". It's Truth is not once-removed from the Will of God it reveals to mankind. However, it's 600 pages of that Will, it's not claiming to have FIT ALL OF GOD'S WILL into 600 pages, like you claim Jesus did. So unless you claim that Jesus contained a certain volume of God's will, you should by now be able to understand the difference between the expressions of Will. The Qur'an contains a finite number of words, whereas God's will, if recorded in its entirety would be infinite. I'm positive you should be able to understand this.
If this is your belief concerning the Quran, then logically speaking worshipping your Quran would be worshipping your God, unless you wish to maintain that Allah and His eternal speech are separate entities – which again would delve into polytheism, because your now asserting there are at least 2 separate eternal divine entities – Allah and the Quran.
No, because the Qur'an is not ALL of God's Will. Anyone who wants to worship 600 pages of recorded Will of the Creator, as opposed to the infinite Creator Himself, WOULD be polytheistic. Just as someone who worships the Messenger of God as opposed to God Himself, would be polytheistic.
If you guys want to maintain that the Quran is the eternal divine will, without delving into polytheism, logically speaking you should label it a “hypostasis” of God, and then you would have a binatarian concept of God without compromising the monotheism you wish to maintain.
Yeah it's a recorded portion of the eternal divine Will, it is FOREVER TRUE, but it does not contain ALL OF GOD'S WILL which does and has always and will always sustain creation. I don't see Muslims making up belief systems about "hypostatic unions" and falling into idolatry where others had fallen.
You are not addressing the issue. Whether the Quran is a PORTION of the Divine Will still makes it a part of that Will, and therefore must be Divine. Unless you want to argue that God's Will is ONLY divine in its entirety, and that its individual parts are not (which would be a non-sensical statement) then you are really not denying anything I am saying.
I think it makes the ENTIRE difference and basically addresses the issue. Unless of course you also believe that Jesus manifested "a portion of the divine Will". Is this what you belief? Otherwise, yes, the words of the Qur'an are absolute Truth, are a finite portion of the infinite Will of God, written on some 600 pages. Is Jesus a finite portion of Divine Will? If you answer yes, you admit that Jesus is not equal to God, just as the Qur'an isn't equal to God's Will in its entirety. If you answer no, your cherished metaphor between the Qur'an and Jesus no longer holds, but you can maintain orthodox Christian belief. It's a tough decision.
but the words of the Quran which originate from God would be divine no matter what it is written on.
True, that's the nature of Truth.
Divine: Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity.
And yet this is precisely analagous to the God-man concept…But, Jesus does have a divine nature that is conjoined to his human nature, much like the Quran is divine in essence and yet attached to things that are not divine, but which are temporal and finite WITHOUT MAKING THE TEMPORAL ASPECT OF THE QURAN ETRENAL OR DIVINE
Haha, ok so you're saying that only the Message of the words of the Qur'an are divine, and not the ink, or the paper, or anything they're written on, or the handwriting, the pure message that they convey. Perfect. So nothing is divine about Jesus except for the words he uttered regarding what he was revealing. I like that.
In other words your example only further strengthens my argument against you, namely that you can have two distinct essences conjoined together without one essence fusing into the other. Thanks friend for all the help you are giving me!
Haha, no thank you, for literally comparing the Qur'an to Jesus to the point where you no longer can claim anything about Jesus was divine except for what he expressed of the divine will, the pure Message with nothing else attached, just as the ink and the parchment don't become divine, but the utterance is absolutely True. I love it.
I hope you realize you are now arguing a heresy according to orthodox Islam which asserts: “The form of the Quran is the Arabic language which religiously speaking is as inseparable from the Quran as the body of Christ is from Christ Himself”
Heresy involves contradicting the Qur'an or Sunnah, not the words of a man. Not to mention that the more we rigorously examine their metaphors, the more we find the comparison is to place Jesus the Messenger as subservient to God as the portion of the divine Will in the Qur'an is to God Himself. The best part is how the muslim scholars compared the Muslim belief regarding the Qur'an with the Christian belief in Jesus. The difference is that the Muslim belief is directly linked to the Qur'an and its Messenger whereas the Christian belief is linked through a human, paraphrased, questionable text. Haha, it would take a Christian "Qur'an" just to substantiate the belief that Jesus is like the Qur'an from a Christian perspective. Wow, that's pretty awesome when you think about it. Otherwise, what Christians believe is not linked to Divinity in any way, it ASCRIBES divinity to Jesus, but where does this belief come from other than from the Bible. And from where and by whom the words and text of the Bible came from, nobody is quite sure.
The scholar asserting this recognises the uncreatedness of the Quran and recognises the Christian concept of the uncreatedness of Christ and thats how he was able to draw this parallel.
Yeah it's a pretty cool parallel now that I think about it. He was saying that IF Christians had a divine text upon which they base all their ideologies, namely the one where Jesus is "the word of God" then the closest comparison would be that of the Qur'an for Muslims. However, the fact that a belief about divinity is based on non-divinity, makes it a tragic, but potent, comment.
“the ‘form of creation’ directly expressing the eternal divine will, is inseparable from the eternal divine will itself, and is therefore inseparable from God himself”. (And that my friend is the logic behind why we worship Christ - the Lord and Creator of heaven and earth)
But the only reason you believe that Christ was the word of God in order to worship Christ, is through the Bible you have today, which is NOT the word of God. What a tragic loop! How do you resolve this?
The injeel is human speech of inspired human authors that God used to convey his Will, it is not the eternal word of God manifest in scripture
No the Injeel does not mean "Bible". The Injeel was the revelation given directly to Jesus by God.
So instead of telling me what you think, please demonstrate why a divine being cannot exist as a human being at the same time? Why can't God exist within two categories simultaneously?
http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/AllahNames.htm
Here you are sir. When you claim that God exists as a divine and human being simultaneously, you can count for yourself how many of his divine attributes He loses.
First run through the list and see whether you agree with them as the attributes of the "divine" and then of those you agree with, how many do you see changing after they "hypostatic" junction?
Until you provide solid arguments against my explanations then you have nothing to offer as a way of counter-response. You only assert that it CANNOT be, but failed to provide any soild logical basis why it cannot. Besides, your claim also undermines the Quran as God's eternal, uncreated speech which makes you a Mutazilah.
Haha, no thanks bro, Ashari for life! Haha. But to be serious for a moment, the way it is proven is by comparing God's attributes before and after, the nature of God never changes.
Read the above. A) Christ did not manifest scripture, nor was he a manifestation of scripture – he was a manifestation of the eternal word of God. B) The prophets were not manifestations of scripture NOR were they manifestations of the eternal word – they were the human authors of scripture, who wrote (using created human language) under divine inspiration.
And where do you get this critical, critical belief/assumption? Let me guess, is it the Bible? The same Bible that:
Biblical scripture is NOT eternal, but created since the speech that God used to convey His Will was the human speech of the divinely inspired human authors.
Ouch! And that's where the Mutazalites fell hundreds of years too, bro. It's all about "how do you know what you know?" If you can't link it to God, you're basing your belief OF God, AND Jesus as the "word of God" who should therefore be worshipped, on the questionable words of men.
Do you see the author's statements that the Muslims were aware of the Christian doctrine of Christ as the Word and that their exposure to it influenced their view of the Quran? Do you see where it says that the Caliph al-Ma'mun said that the belief in the Quran's uncreatedness resembled Chrstian beliefs in Christ? I hope this time you do see it since I am getting tired of constantly reposting these qoutes.
Yeah I see it, but am I supposed to jump up because Caliph al-Ma'mun said it? He forgets that while he thinks the beliefs are similar, one is based on divine text while the other is based on the words of people. It's like if tomorrow I find out a tribe in South Asia believes that there's a man who is God incarnate because he is the "word of God". I ask them why they believe this, and they say because we found it written by our sages over time. And what proof do you have that the words of the sages are divine? None. Thank you.
Your appeal to a "Preserved Book" is further evidence that you really do not have a response.
Giving you more info, bro, we're always learning.
Are you again erroneously assuming that the words inscribed in the Heavenly Tablet are eternal ONLY in their entirety, but that portions or parts of those inscribed words are not eternal?
Oh they're eternally true, but the 600 pages do not represent ALL of God's Will, as you want to claim of Jesus.
I know that this is not what you are saying which only shows that your statement that the Quran is only a PORTION of the heavenly tablet proves absolutely nothing.
It proves a lot. One of the things it proves is that the Qur'an is not likened to Jesus in that regard, unless Jesus is a fraction of God's Will, therefore subservient to God's Will itself.
You are proving to me that you are indeed not reading my posts carefully. It is quite obvious that you have no response and so need to ignore my statements as if this will deny the facts I have presented. This only shows that you have run out of anything substantial to say.
I think you have a mouthful to deal with in this post, bro.
I am sure you will not say that Ibn Hanbal is not Orthodox, and yet he fails to make your distinctions regarding God's Will, the Preserved Tablet, and the Quran being only a portion of that tablet and will. He clearly says the Quran IS UNCREATED.
Imam Hanbal is absolutely CORRECT in what he states. Of course Imam Hanbal also writes extensively about the Preserved Tablet, how it is ridiculous to claim anthropomorphism of God, and no Muslim on earth would describe the Qur'an as containing all of God's will. So we're basically in agreement with Imam Hanbal.
Thanks for further strengthening my case for the Logic of God Incarnate. If God's uncreated, divine Speech can become a book, than it can also become a man.
Except the book, or the papers, or the ink are not divine. Which leaves the very meaning of the message of the words themselves. So at best you believe nothing about Jesus was divine but his message, which is cool.
Furthermore, the Quran as God's Word (in your view anyway) is an expression of the Divine will no doubt, but so is Christ. Again, your claims are only strengthening the analogy between the Quran and Christ.
Heh, I think the analogy fell apart a few paragraphs up.
BINGO!!!! You hit the jackpot!!!! Precisely, God's Will is eternal, but the book which contains it or expresses it is not. Again, God's Will is eternal, but the human body which enfleshed that Will is not eternal. So thanks again for demonstrating how two distinct essences, one eternal and the other temporal, can coexist simultaneously in one entity!!!
Haha, so the expressions of the Qur'an are as eternal as the expression of Jesus, but nothing else is divine. "Bingo"
So this is what you appeal to as a response to my questions regarding the ignorance of Allah?? Please provide something of substance instead of appealing to an article that admits there are problems with the Quran and only repeats links galore as if this refutes anything I said.
I am seriously doubting whether you even read that link. It is becoming obvious that you are willing to say and link to anything as long as it gives the impression that you are actually dealing with the issues, when in fact you are not.
He gave some explanation, then I gave you a whole page of my own. You didn't quote those and ignored them, where are they?
Oh wait, here they are, I wonder how you missed this chunk:
Here's my reply:
May, from dictionary.com
Used to express contingency, purpose, or result in clauses introduced by that or so that: expressing ideas so that the average person may understand.
This applies to these quotes
"If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns: that Allah MAY KNOW THOSE that believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks martyr-witnesses (to truth). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing those that resist Faith. Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast? S. 3:140-142
Say: "I know not whether the (Punishment) which ye are promised is near, or whether my Lord will appoint for it a distant term. He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Secrets.- Except an messenger whom He has chosen: and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him, That He MAY KNOW that they have (truly) brought and delivered the Messages of their Lord: and He encompasses all that is with them, and takes account of every single thing." S. 72:25-28
He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;- S. 67:2
In this quote, God is directly addressing Muhammad (pbuh), asking Muhammad how he (Muhammad) could know whether or not the blind man would take heed of the reminder. More than one of the scholars of Tafsir mentioned that one day the Messenger of Allah was addressing one of the great leaders of the Quraysh while hoping that he would accept Islam. While he was speaking in direct conversation with him, Ibn Umm Maktum came to him, and he was of those who had accepted Islam in its earliest days. He (Ibn Umm Maktum) then began asking the Messenger of Allah about something, urgently beseeching him. The Prophet hoped that the man would be guided, so he asked Ibn Umm Maktum to wait for a moment so he could complete his conversation. He frowned in the face of Ibn Umm Maktum and turned away from him in order to face the other man.
(He frowned and turned away. Because there came to him the blind man. And how can you know that he might become pure) meaning, he may attain purification and cleanliness in his soul.
(Or he might receive admonition, and the admonition might profit him) meaning, he may receive admonition and abstain from the forbidden.
He frowned and turned away. Because the blind man came unto him. What could inform thee but that he MIGHT grow (in grace) Or take heed and so the reminder might avail him? S. 80:1-4 Pickthall
And this:
Then, it may be that you will give up part of what is revealed to you and your breast will become straitened by it because they say: Why has not a treasure been sent down upon him or an angel come with him? You are only a warner; and Allah is custodian over all things. S. 11:14 Shakir
(So perchance you may give up a part of what is revealed unto you, and that your breast feels straitened for it because they say...) The meaning here is that he (the Prophet ) may be compelled to give up the Message due to what they (the polytheists) say about him. However, Allah goes on to explain: "You (Muhammad) are only a warner and you have an example in your brothers of the Messengers who came before you. For verily, the previous Messengers were rejected and harmed, yet they were patient until the help of Allah came to them.''
Yet it may be, if they believe not in this statement, that thou (Muhammad) wilt torment thy soul with grief over their footsteps. S. 18:6 Pickthall
(It may be that you are going to kill yourself with grief, that they do not become believers.) [26] meaning, maybe you will destroy yourself with your grief over them. Allah says:
(Perhaps, you would kill yourself in grief, over their footsteps, because they believe not in this narration.) meaning the Qur'an.
(in grief) Allah is saying, `do not destroy yourself with regret.' Qatadah said: "killing yourself with anger and grief over them.'' Mujahid said: "with anxiety.'' These are synonymous, so the meaning is: `Do not feel sorry for them, just convey the Message of Allah to them. Whoever goes the right way, then he goes the right way only for the benefit of himself. And whoever goes astray, then he strays at his own loss, so do not destroy yourself in sorrow for them.'
And this:
Allâh said: "You are granted your request, O Mûsa (Moses)! And indeed We conferred a favour on you another time (before). When We inspired your mother with that which We inspired. Saying: ‘Put him (the child) into the Tabût (a box or a case or a chest) and put it into the river (Nile), then the river shall cast it up on the bank, and there, an enemy of Mine and an enemy of his shall take him.’ And I endued you with love from Me, in order that you may be brought up under My Eye, When your sister went and said: ‘Shall I show you one who will nurse him?’ So We restored you to your mother, that she might cool her eyes and she should not grieve. Then you did kill a man, but We saved you from great distress and tried you with a heavy trial. Then you stayed a number of years with the people of Madyan (Midian). Then you came here according to the fixed term which I ordained (for you), O Mûsa (Moses)! And I have Istana'tuka, for Myself. Go you and your brother with My Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and do not, you both, slacken and become weak in My Remembrance. Go, both of you, to Fir'aun (Pharaoh), verily, he has transgressed (all bounds in disbelief and disobedience and behaved as an arrogant and as a tyrant). And speak to him mildly, PERHAPS he may accept admonition or fear Allâh." They said: "Our Lord! Verily! We fear lest he should hasten to punish us or lest he should transgress (all bounds against us)." He (Allâh) said: "Fear not, verily! I am with you both, hearing and seeing." S. 20:36-46 Hilali-Khan
Much in the same way that Muhammad (pbuh) was told to speak to the blind man and not pre-judge whom will accept the message or delay in giving it to them.
And this
It may be thou will kill thy self with grief, that they do not become Believers. S. 26:3
(It may be that you are going Bakhi` yourself,) means, destroy yourself -- because of your keenness that they should be guided and your grief for them.
(that they do not become believers.) Here Allah is consoling His Messenger for the lack of faith of those among the disbelievers who do not believe in him. This is like the Ayat:
(So destroy not yourself in sorrow for them) (35:8 ).
(Perhaps, you would Bakhi` yourself, over their footsteps, because they believe not in this narration) (18:6). Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, `Atiyyah, Ad-Dahhak, Al-Hasan and others said that:
(It may be that you are going Bakhi` yourself,) means, `kill yourself.' Then Allah says:
(If We will, We could send down to them from the heaven a sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.) meaning, `if We so willed, We could send down a sign that would force them to believe, but We will not do that because We do not want anyone to believe except by choice.' Allah says:
(And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers.) (10:99)
(And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely, have made mankind one Ummah...) (11:118 ) But Allah's will has acted, His decree has come to pass, and His proof has been conveyed to mankind by mission of Messengers and the revelation of Books to them. Then Allah says:
(And never comes there unto them a Reminder as a recent revelation from the Most Gracious, but they turn away therefrom.) meaning, every time a Scripture comes from heaven to them, most of the people turn away from it. As Allah says:
(And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly.) (12:103)
(Alas for mankind! There never came a Messenger to them but they used to mock at him.) (36:30)
(Then We sent Our Messengers in succession. Every time there came to a nation their Messenger, they denied him...) (23:44). Allah says here:
(So, they have indeed denied, then the news of what they mocked at will come to them.) meaning, they denied the truth that came to them, so they will come to know the news of the consequences of this denial after a while.
The Holy Bible didn't preexist its earthly composition or origin
Amen to that. And this is the only reason you believe that Jesus is "the word of God' and therefore "divine".
Muslim DO believe that Jesus is the Word of God, even though they understand it differently from the way Christians understand the expression. See for instance S. 3:39, 45 and 4:171. And here are some hadiths added for good measure:
... You better go to Jesus, the Spirit of Allah AND HIS WORD... (Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0373:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0373 )
Yeah I'm the one who told you that about the Injil. It's in my sig, what an amazing discovery. The Divinely revealed Qur'an also asserts in the most clear words that Jesus is not divine.
But, God's speech IS NO LESS THAN GOD as are his other attributes.
You're breaking the fundamental rule of the Divine Unity of God. Something is either God or it is not, and God has no equals or partners. Everything besides God, is not equal to God. It's as simple as that. 600 pages of the word of God is NOT, therefore they are not God. It's a straightforward creed.
Finally, I didn't say that the Quran as God's speech IS ALL OF GOD
And this is precisely the problem people had interpreting the virgin birth. Some couldn't understand that the miracles of God are independent from God, and therefore what was born of a virgin birth is the son of God.
Still he plainly states that the Qur'an recognizes itself to be the Word of God, "ETERNALLY OF HIS ESSENCE".[21] On the other hand the Qur'an is created in the sense that it is manifest in the world of creation through writings and sounds.[22]
Yes, a portion of the will of God is clearly a part of the complete Will. Keep reading and find the passage where he says the Qur'an is equal in magnitude or in any other way to God.
Nevertheless, he adds, Muhammad cannot be identified with God or a part of Him, since associating a creature with God is shirk ("association" or idolatry).[25]
True. Which is precisely what one does when they take a part of God's Message, say it is of God and separate from God, but therefore equal to God.
So according to the above Muslims, the Quran is the Divine Word, is eternally of God's essence. Asharis also said that Allah's attributes, which the Quran is one, are not Allah BUT THEY ARE ALSO NOT OTHER THAN ALLAH.
Hopefully you will carefully read these this time around.
I already read them and they don't say that the Qur'an is remotely equal to God, what is this polytheism you're infatuated with. You must really think that angels are divine and therefore God:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=UT ... e%22&meta=
Here you go, here's a long list of "Christian scholars" you can contend with regarding that.
But unless something is all of these:
http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/AllahNames.htm
it is not equal to God. It's that easy.
First, the essences are distinct, but not separable, since they have been united together in the person of Christ. This why I said that the essences were conjoined without fusion. Second, the proper analogy to the Incarnation is NOT a square and a triangle, even though you can use it if you like. The triangle is used in Christian circles to illustrate the Trinity. A circle is attached to one of the corners of the triangle to demonstrate the union of the two natures in Christ. That is why only one of the corners has a circle attached to it since only the Son took on human nature. Note, I said attached, not fused inside the triangle.
Ok, so you say the essences remain separate, which means you don't believe that Jesus IS God. Though I'm pretty sure "Jesus is Lord" is up there in terms of fundamental beliefs. If you're saying Jesus is a conjoined God essence – human essence, and God is just the God essence, then Jesus is not God, because God is solely the God essence.
Returning to your ORIGINAL analogy of the square and a circle, simply place the circle on top of the square and see what you get. Two distinct objects attached to one another without either object losing any of its distinct qualities or shape.
Yeah, but then I don't give the square and circle a new name like "squircle" and say "squircle is square" (where square is supposed to be the divine essence, you can use circle as well if you like).
Do you distinguish the human Arabic characters used to write down the Quran from the those words found in the heavenly tablet?
Not the particular ones found in the Qur'an, no.
Before these words were written down, in what form did they exist?
Nice question, the words are the recorded Will of God. They are records…of the Will. Before they were written down, they existed as the Will of God.
Now that they have been written down, do they cease to be the divine, uncreated speech of God?
No, because they still reflect the absolute Truth they are meant to convey.
If they do not cease to be divine, then are you saying that the Arabic text written down by men within time and space are also divine and uncreated?
Since they are the precise utterances conveyed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by the Angel Gabriel, then yes.
I would really like you to answer these for me instead of evading them.
Haha, ok, enjoy.
The divine nature didnt take up human attributes, nor did the human nature take up divine attributes, the two natures remained distinct and unchanged, yet they were inseparable within the person of Christ.
Ok I see this as progress. So the two essences remained separate throughout. Then you don't really believe that Jesus IS God. Because "Jesus" is, or I should say, "are" (because two essences are plural, and no longer one single essence as you adamantly hold) "two separate essences". I would still disagree with you there, but it's not as polytheistic as saying "Jesus is Lord/God". Christians believe that "Jesus are the divine and human essences, distinct and unchanged ".
I then said TO TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER. If God can appear as a man without ceasing to be God, THEN WHY CAN'T HE BECOME A MAN WITHOUT CEASING TO BE GOD? You haven't shown us why he cannot.
Because angels are not God, they can change, and here, they change shape. For God to change appearance, He would have to "change"
The Majestic, The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures and from resembling them.
"...There is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things). Qur'an [42]
His attributes are constant, they is no change of shape, size, merging, or fusing, or making combinations or essences, or appearances.
NONE of these passages say that the Spirit is Gabriel. It is so obvious that there is not a single verse in the entire Quran where Gabriel is called the Spirit SO YOU HAD TO INSERT THE WORD GABRIEL WITHIN PARENTHESES IN ORDER TO MAKE THE CONNECTION!!!
I didn't put those in the parenthesis, this is the translation. Look here:
Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought
down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."(Qur'an 2:97)
**Gabriel has brought down the Qur'an
Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters." (Quran 16:102)
The Holy Spirit has brought down the Qur'an**
The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it. (Quran 26:193)
How much more obvious can it be. What's YOUR interpretation of these verses? Are you claiming that Gabriel who is referred to throughout the Quran as "The Spirit" and "Gabriel" who brought down the Quran is NOT "The Holy Spirit" that brought down the Quran?
[78] The day will come when the Spirit and the angels will stand in a row.
None will speak except those permitted by the Most Gracious, and they
will utter only what is right.
[97] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by their Lord's leave, to
carry out every command.
Haha, I can't wait to hear your explanation. Are you waiting for a verse to say "Gabriel IS THE SAME THING AS the Spirit"?\
It's ok man, you can answer without your answering-islam crutch. Take a deep breath and decide.
I will send you a host of verses and comments by Muslims that do not agree at all with your position that Gabriel is the Spirit.
I'm very interested, actually. Sometimes the word "spirit" is used to mean "revelation from God" and sometimes it means "soul". But I'd very interested, yes, to hear of when "The Spirit" refers to any other but Gabriel.
Therefore, the Quran is the God-book, it is one of the divine attributes of God which became a book.
God is known by His attributes. You refer to divine angels as you do the divine word of God, that doesn't mean they are equal to God, the only thing that became a book is a record of a portion of the Divine Will, how on earth do you call that "a divine attribute". By your understanding, since the "divine Will" is eternal, and eternal is an attribute, then the divine Will is separate from God and is God. God's Mercy is eternal as well, why don't you separate this attribute from God. All of God's attributes are eternal, you just pick one up, call it eternal, then call it divine, then hyphenate it with God. Loving the Christian lesson on how theologies are invented. DIVINE MEANS:
Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=divine ---- check here
So what was your objection the Logic of the Incarnation?
You have 12 pages of it up there ^^^^^^^.
I will discontinue this discussion unless and until you can provide meaningful rebuttals since this discussion has seriously degenerated. Im not going to waste my time running in circles, for someone who simply wants to argue for arguments sake.
Haha, going already?
Peace bro