Christian/Muslim ThreadsWhy wont Muhammed come back at Judgement?Ok good thing you quoted what they said. Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) did not have the Injil revealed to him in writing, but rather, it is surmised that it was completely known to him since birth. So yes, Christians believe that Jesus was a contrast of the divine among men, for the very revelations that were imbued in him. Haha, whether you "worship" it is irrelevant? No that's very relevant. The Qur'an was revealed BY God, it is divine because it reflects absolute Truth, which can come only from God. It has not another characteristic besides being the pristine Truth of God. By your logic, you should start worshipping angels. In Islam, one only worships God, not His creations. The important distinction to be drawn is that the Will of God is not separate from God Himself, and a record of the portion of this Will is not the Divine Will itself. Otherwise you can inscribe Quranic verses everywhere claiming everything is divine just because they have Quranic verses on them, since each carries Absolute Truth. I hope you see the distinction between the Complete Will of God and a partial record thereof. There's still nothing wrong in thinking that Jesus was a "walking Injil" since he had this knowledge in himself. At the same time, however, the prophet Muhammad is also called "the walking Quran". And yes, I stand by this quote completely These properties ARE incompatible, as are eternality, omnipotence, and independence of creation with finiteness, temporality, and being a creation. You can't fit all the first 3 things with the last three, especially if you're trying to combine a divine BEING with a human BEING. Oh ok, so you believe Jesus is God because he manifests God's word? So if the Bible (obviously the Bible was written after Jesus ascended, but I'm using it here as the Scripture that describes God's word) said explicitly that Jesus is NOT God, and yet he manifests the "Scripture," you'd STILL think he was God? Like I said, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also completely represented the word of God in thought and deed, but ascribing any partners to God is idolatry. There, I think that was pretty simplified for you.
Haha, no it isn't, and I'd love to see where you're pulling this from. The Mutazalites had trouble understanding exactly WHEN the words of the Quran were created, not whether the Truth of God could ever be revealed as text. I think what's obvious is that you're trying really hard to pull a fast one. If you ask your famous Orthodox Islamic scholars up there, why they don't worship the Qur'an, they'll tell you because it's just a revelation of the WILL of the creator. This is One attribute which Christians give to Jesus. But apparently the fact that Jesus manifested the Scripture is the only reason you believe he is God, then you'd worship the Prophets of any revealed religion. Haha, well at least I know where you get your information about the Mutazilites from, and bring me just one piece of evidence to support that last sentence there, are you now just making things up as you go along? Now I am convinced you don't even read what you post. They thought that anything "flawless" needs to be eternal and can't be created. They, among other things, forgot that angels are also flawless creations. Bro, read the book to get an idea of what you're talking about. You spent this whole post talking about how Mutazalites said the Qur'an is created, while not even distinguishing between what the "Preserved Tablet" records and the portion contained in the revealed Qur'an... http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses ... /t5_73.htm A common quote used is: The Prophet (pbuh) said: "(There was a time when) Allah existed, and there was nothing beside Him". Eternally existent? No. Pre-existing or coexisting with God? No. There's your simple answer. You've become so confused in this conversation that now you're literally speaking Mutazalite doctrine and thinking it's the words of "Orthodox Islamic scholars". There's a difference between the Will of God, the "Preserved Tablet" which is surmised to record it, and the Qur'an which is a portion thereof. Right, that's why the debate isn't about when God's WILL began, the whole debate is when it was RECORDED DOWN ON TABLET. Wow. Divine Will is eternal, but when it was recorded on preserved tablets, is NOT. There's a difference. Do you know what you're saying at this point? The whole Quran debate is centered around when and where the words of the Quran were created, not when the WILL THEY RECORD originated! Ok, Jesus was a walking Injil, and Muhammad (pbut) was a walking Qur'an. It's very simple bro, it doesn't mean that the Prophets of God living by the precise word of God are Divine. And the reason the Muslim scholars didn’t compare it to the Bible or the OT is because they aren't the pristine word of God. Actually, you've managed to trip over two fundamental things—exactly what the Mutazalites said, and the difference between the will of God and the recorded Words of God representing that absolute Truth. Haha, ok let's take a look at your verses then, because they don't indicate absolute ignorance at all (please excuse the author's language and verbiage though): http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... buttal.htm Here's my reply: May, from dictionary.com Used to express contingency, purpose, or result in clauses introduced by that or so that: expressing ideas so that the average person may understand. This applies to these quotes "If a wound hath touched you, be sure a similar wound hath touched the others. Such days (of varying fortunes) We give to men and men by turns: that Allah MAY KNOW THOSE that believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks martyr-witnesses (to truth). And Allah loveth not those that do wrong. Allah's object also is to purge those that are true in Faith and to deprive of blessing those that resist Faith. Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast? S. 3:140-142 Say: "I know not whether the (Punishment) which ye are promised is near, or whether my Lord will appoint for it a distant term. He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Secrets.- Except an messenger whom He has chosen: and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him, That He MAY KNOW that they have (truly) brought and delivered the Messages of their Lord: and He encompasses all that is with them, and takes account of every single thing." S. 72:25-28 He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;- S. 67:2 In this quote, God is directly addressing Muhammad (pbuh), asking Muhammad how he (Muhammad) could know whether or not the blind man would take heed of the reminder. More than one of the scholars of Tafsir mentioned that one day the Messenger of Allah was addressing one of the great leaders of the Quraysh while hoping that he would accept Islam. While he was speaking in direct conversation with him, Ibn Umm Maktum came to him, and he was of those who had accepted Islam in its earliest days. He (Ibn Umm Maktum) then began asking the Messenger of Allah about something, urgently beseeching him. The Prophet hoped that the man would be guided, so he asked Ibn Umm Maktum to wait for a moment so he could complete his conversation. He frowned in the face of Ibn Umm Maktum and turned away from him in order to face the other man. (He frowned and turned away. Because there came to him the blind man. And how can you know that he might become pure) meaning, he may attain purification and cleanliness in his soul. (Or he might receive admonition, and the admonition might profit him) meaning, he may receive admonition and abstain from the forbidden. He frowned and turned away. Because the blind man came unto him. What could inform thee but that he MIGHT grow (in grace) Or take heed and so the reminder might avail him? S. 80:1-4 Pickthall And this: Then, it may be that you will give up part of what is revealed to you and your breast will become straitened by it because they say: Why has not a treasure been sent down upon him or an angel come with him? You are only a warner; and Allah is custodian over all things. S. 11:14 Shakir (So perchance you may give up a part of what is revealed unto you, and that your breast feels straitened for it because they say...) The meaning here is that he (the Prophet ) may be compelled to give up the Message due to what they (the polytheists) say about him. However, Allah goes on to explain: "You (Muhammad) are only a warner and you have an example in your brothers of the Messengers who came before you. For verily, the previous Messengers were rejected and harmed, yet they were patient until the help of Allah came to them.'' Yet it may be, if they believe not in this statement, that thou (Muhammad) wilt torment thy soul with grief over their footsteps. S. 18:6 Pickthall (It may be that you are going to kill yourself with grief, that they do not become believers.) [26] meaning, maybe you will destroy yourself with your grief over them. Allah says: (Perhaps, you would kill yourself in grief, over their footsteps, because they believe not in this narration.) meaning the Qur'an. (in grief) Allah is saying, `do not destroy yourself with regret.' Qatadah said: "killing yourself with anger and grief over them.'' Mujahid said: "with anxiety.'' These are synonymous, so the meaning is: `Do not feel sorry for them, just convey the Message of Allah to them. Whoever goes the right way, then he goes the right way only for the benefit of himself. And whoever goes astray, then he strays at his own loss, so do not destroy yourself in sorrow for them.' And this: Allâh said: "You are granted your request, O Mûsa (Moses)! And indeed We conferred a favour on you another time (before). When We inspired your mother with that which We inspired. Saying: ‘Put him (the child) into the Tabût (a box or a case or a chest) and put it into the river (Nile), then the river shall cast it up on the bank, and there, an enemy of Mine and an enemy of his shall take him.’ And I endued you with love from Me, in order that you may be brought up under My Eye, When your sister went and said: ‘Shall I show you one who will nurse him?’ So We restored you to your mother, that she might cool her eyes and she should not grieve. Then you did kill a man, but We saved you from great distress and tried you with a heavy trial. Then you stayed a number of years with the people of Madyan (Midian). Then you came here according to the fixed term which I ordained (for you), O Mûsa (Moses)! And I have Istana'tuka, for Myself. Go you and your brother with My Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and do not, you both, slacken and become weak in My Remembrance. Go, both of you, to Fir'aun (Pharaoh), verily, he has transgressed (all bounds in disbelief and disobedience and behaved as an arrogant and as a tyrant). And speak to him mildly, PERHAPS he may accept admonition or fear Allâh." They said: "Our Lord! Verily! We fear lest he should hasten to punish us or lest he should transgress (all bounds against us)." He (Allâh) said: "Fear not, verily! I am with you both, hearing and seeing." S. 20:36-46 Hilali-Khan Much in the same way that Muhammad (pbuh) was told to speak to the blind man and not pre-judge whom will accept the message or delay in giving it to them. And this It may be thou will kill thy self with grief, that they do not become Believers. S. 26:3 (It may be that you are going Bakhi` yourself,) means, destroy yourself -- because of your keenness that they should be guided and your grief for them. (that they do not become believers.) Here Allah is consoling His Messenger for the lack of faith of those among the disbelievers who do not believe in him. This is like the Ayat: (So destroy not yourself in sorrow for them) (35:8 ). (Perhaps, you would Bakhi` yourself, over their footsteps, because they believe not in this narration) (18:6). Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Qatadah, `Atiyyah, Ad-Dahhak, Al-Hasan and others said that: (It may be that you are going Bakhi` yourself,) means, `kill yourself.' Then Allah says: (If We will, We could send down to them from the heaven a sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.) meaning, `if We so willed, We could send down a sign that would force them to believe, but We will not do that because We do not want anyone to believe except by choice.' Allah says: (And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers.) (10:99) (And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely, have made mankind one Ummah...) (11:118 ) But Allah's will has acted, His decree has come to pass, and His proof has been conveyed to mankind by mission of Messengers and the revelation of Books to them. Then Allah says: (And never comes there unto them a Reminder as a recent revelation from the Most Gracious, but they turn away therefrom.) meaning, every time a Scripture comes from heaven to them, most of the people turn away from it. As Allah says: (And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly.) (12:103) (Alas for mankind! There never came a Messenger to them but they used to mock at him.) (36:30) (Then We sent Our Messengers in succession. Every time there came to a nation their Messenger, they denied him...) (23:44). Allah says here: (So, they have indeed denied, then the news of what they mocked at will come to them.) meaning, they denied the truth that came to them, so they will come to know the news of the consequences of this denial after a while. Actually what's ridiculous is your complete butchering of Mutazilite thought here. Maybe if you'd read the book you would have gotten a thorough understanding of how "tablets" containing the words of God, pre-existed the revealed Qur'an on Earth, but did not precede God. That's basically it. The confusion originates when people think there's a lag time between "God" and "God's Will," or that they are separate. Well I hope it's clear by now that explaining the miracle of preserved Scripture recording the words of God was always a moot philosophical point, though adequately addressed by Al-Ghazzali. In fact, your article says "The argument over the eternality of the Koran is of little relevance to the practice of ordinary Muslims today" There's a difference between not contemplating every waking second how the miracles of all creation were created by God, and not being able to resolve how God can BE both divine and human. In one case, one is contemplating the omnipotence of God, in the other, one is contemplating whom/what they are worshipping, to WHOM the omnipotence evident in the creation universe should be accredited in the first place. I don't see why you're still confused about this. The Qur'an doesn't record ALL the will of God, just 600 pages of it. The issue isn't about the "infinity of the Will of God" because the Qur'an doesn't contain this infinity, but the portion revealed to mankind. The whole debate is on WHEN this was recorded and then revealed. Actually, now that I've distinguished for you where the issue of eternality lies between the Qur'an and the "Preserved Tablet," the book is officially relevant to all of your arguments. Well now you have an explanation of what those Islamic resources meant. Scroll up to read why a record of the will of God is not something to be worshipped. However, to find out more, visit the home page of one of those Islamic resources, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, who happens to be a Shiite Sufi. Shiites, by the way, don't have a problem with the createdness of the Qur'an. Which leads me to wonder how Orthodox and Sunni Yusuf K. Ibish, is. Do you have any jurisprudential sites or quotes by fiqh scholars? I can find a lot of skewed quotes by self-proclaimed "scholars of Islam," but that doesn't make it Orthodox, because the comparison of the Quran to Jesus is made by people who want to claim that Jesus isn't divine because they ALLEGE that Mary was not a virgin, likewise saying in the same breath that the Qur'an is not divine because they ALLEGE Muhammad was not illiterate. The comparison is made to show the importance of having an immaculate vessel carry the word of God, and NOT the basis of what should be worshipped.
Oh I didn't know that Jews and Christians never even claimed to have the word of God, and that it was paraphrased even when it was supposed to have been revealed. So what's the view on the ten commandments on stone tablets? It's not an insult, everyone should learn to be less arrogant, it's the least desirable trait in my opinion. Many "Christian Scholars" don't have a problem with stating that the Virgin Mary was not a Virgin before she gave birth to Jesus (pbuh). Others claim that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. When you want to claim that something is or isn't Orthodox belief, you have to produce more than a couple of quotes. The only similarity you find between the Quran and the Christian view of Jesus, is that they both "express the will of God". Yet the Prophet Muhammad was the "walking Quran" and yet Muslims are able to differentiate between the infinite Will of God and the portion revealed in the Qur'an. Unless you believe that Jesus is 600 pages of the Will of God, which would necessarily make him subordinate to the Complete Will of God. I'm very interested in reading more about this from the Orthodox Islamic scholars. Going point by point in comparing the Qur'an and Jesus… Two people drawing a metaphor on a website doesn't constitute Orthodox Islam, especially when they are comparing the recorded Will of God to the Christian concept that Jesus spoke and enacted the Will of God. It's an analogy in that specific regard, and not one claiming the dual divine and human nature of a being which therefore must be worshipped. Yes there's no way that's true. Christian circles are still deciding when the NT documents were created. I have. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the "word of God" nor that he was "divine". You're basically asking me to resolve how someone can believe in the revealed word of God as part of a "Preserved Tablet" while not believing that a human being was the "Preserved Tablet" reflecting the entire Will of God itself. How does the Mutazalites' worry that the uncreatedness of the Qur'an resembles a Christian's conception of Jesus
The Mutazalites did, yes.
The only way to "logically conclude" that the Qur'an is divine and equal to God is to show how it fits the description of all the attributes of Divinity. Since it does not, it's clearly isn't, unless you'd like to show how omnipotent the Qur'an is for example. The key word here being attributes of course. All you've done is you've tried to separate between God and "His Will" then having done that, you're trying to show that they are coequal. Is God separate from His own Will? I'll just reply with one of your own replies here:
Oh ok, so the divine and human essences were separate and distinct. So do you also distinguish between the divine and human words/actions of Jesus, grouping them into one or the other? God united the divine and the human as one attaches a square to a triangle? Excuse the poor drawing, but how many Christians would call this attachment "a single thing both square and triangle in one, a divine hypostatic union of the square and triangle" |_| /_\ Right, and then two pages ago I asked you to show how a being can be both divine and human without losing any of its divine attributes, then you suddenly wanted to talk about the Mutazalites. So since you want to come back to the topic, explain how the attributes of the divine don't change when they are in union with the human, unless of course this union is just a union of words, a tangency like the square and circle touch at a point. Angels and men are both creations, and angels appear as men, they don't hypostatically unionize, to junction their angelic essence with a human essence. True The Spirit being the angel Gabriel, yes. And they can. Ok Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."(Qur'an 2:97) Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters." (Quran 16:102) This (Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. (Quran 26:192) The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it. (Quran 26:193) For one thing, the angels appeared as men, they didn't fuse their essences with men. Second of all, I don't go by the OT regarding what God did or did not do. Thirdly, the reason God does not Will to become man is because there is an inherent impossibility in being completely divine and completely human. You might want to reread this thread or give a list showing the divine attributes before and after such a union and how they wouldn't be changed. Done Never heard of a God-book, though the essences of a book and of God are as distinct as those of God and man. Peace bro |
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