Christian/Muslim ThreadsWhy wont Muhammed come back at Judgement?ATTENTION HUMBLE_GUEST: This Post is in addition to the above post
First, I need to correct the claim that the Jewish belief in the preexistence of the Torah was sparked by the Mutazilah controversy. One can find Jews believing in the preexistnce of the Torah long before Islam ever existed: Preexistence of the Torah. The Torah is older than the world, for it existed either 947 generations (Zeb. 116a, and parallels) or 2,000 years (Gen. R. viii., and parallels; Weber, "Jüdische Theologie," p. 15) before the Creation. The original Pentateuch, therefore, like everything celestial, consisted of fire, being written in black letters of flame upon a white ground of fire (Yer. She. 49a, and parallels; Blau, "Althebräisches Buchwesen," p. 156). God held counsel with it at the creation of the world, since it was wisdom itself (Tan., Bereshit, passim), and it was God's first revelation, in which He Himself took part. It was given in completeness for all time and for all mankind, so that no further revelation can be expected. It was given in the languages of all peoples; for the voice of the divine revelation was seventyfold (Weber, l.c. pp. 16-20; Blau, "Zur Einleitung in die Heilige Schrift," pp. 84-100). It shines forever, and was transcribed by the scribes of the seventy peoples (Bacher, "Ag. Tan." ii. 203, 416), while everything found in the Prophets and the Hagiographa was already contained in the Torah (Ta'an. 9a), so that, if the Israelites had not sinned, only the five books of Moses would have been given them (Ned. 22b). As a matter of fact, the Prophets and the Hagiographa will be abrogated; but the Torah will remain forever (Yer. Meg. 70d). Every letter of it is a living creature. When Solomon took many wives, Deuteronomy threw himself before God and complained that Solomon wished to remove from the Pentateuch the yod of the word(Deut. xvii. 17), with which the prohibition of polygamy was spoken; and God replied: "Solomon and a thousand like him shall perish, but not one letter of the Torah shall be destroyed" (Lev. R. xix.; Yer. Sanh. 20c; Cant. R. 5, 11; comp. Bacher, l.c. ii. 123, note 5). The single letters were hypostatized, and were active even at the creation of the world (Bacher, l.c. i. 347), an idea which is probably derived from Gnostic speculation. The whole world is said to be only 1/3200 of the Torah ('Er. 21a). Israel received this treasure only through suffering (Ber. 5a, and parallels), for the book and the sword came together from heaven, and Israel was obliged to choose between them (Sifre, Deut. 40, end; Bacher, l.c. ii. 402, note 5); and whosoever denies the heavenly origin of the Torah will lose the future life (Sanh. x. 1). This high esteem finds its expression in the rule that a copy of the Pentateuch is unlimited in value, and in the ordinance that the inhabitants of a city might oblige one another to procure scrolls of the Law (Tosef., B. M. iii. 24, xi. 23). The pious bequeathed a copy of the Torah to the synagogue (ib. B.l.c. ii. 3); and it was the duty of each one to make one for himself, while the honor paid the Bible greatly influenced the distribution of copies and led to the foundation of libraries (Blau, "Althebräisches Buchwesen," pp. 84-97). (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 5&letter=T) Note that most, if not all, of these Jewish sources predate Islam. If anything, then, one can make a better case that it was the Jewish belief in the preexistence of the Torah that sparked the controversy between the Asharis and Mutazilates. But even here, as you will note from the above citations, the Jews believed that the Torah was created, not eternal, and therefore their views are not at all analogous to the Mutazilite/Ashari controversy. Second, please show us any evidence from early Christian circles where they believed in the preexistence of the NT documents, specifically the Gospels. The Christians believed in the eternal preexistence of Christ as the Word of God who then became flesh. Which brings me to my second point. You made a big hay out of my appeal to the Muslim belief in the uncreatedness of the Quran, all the while ignoring that the comparison between Christ and the Quran wasn't a Christian innovation. The Muslims were making that comparison, so you need to face the music and deal with those quotes. Let me repeat some of those quotes: Cyril Glassé continues: "It is a fundamental doctrine of Islam that the Koran, as the speech of God, is eternal and uncreated in its essence and sense, created in its letters and sounds (harf wa jarh). It has been asserted that the doctrine of the uncreated Koran WAS THE RESULT OF EXPOSURE TO THE CHRISTIAN DOGMA OF THE LOGOS; that, as Christians defined Jesus as the Word of God and as having two natures, one human and one Divine in one person, SO THE MUSLIMS TRANSPOSED THIS DOCTRINE BY ANALOGY TO THE KORAN AS THE WORD OF GOD MADE BOOK. The Muslims were indeed aware of the Christian doctrine; the Caliph al-Ma'mun (d. 218/833), who supported the Mu'tazilite theory that the Koran was created, wrote to one of his governors that belief in the uncreatedness of the Koran RESEMBLED THE CHRISTIANS WHEN THEY CLAIM THAT JESUS WAS NOT CREATED BECAUSE HE WAS THE 'Word of God'. During the brief Mu'tazilite ascendancy which began in the Caliphate of al-Ma'mun, belief in the uncreated Koran was temporarily suspended, arousing fierce opposition. The Koran was declared to be created, and those opposed to this view were persecuted during an inquisition called the mihnah (212-232/833-847) into the beliefs of the religious authorities. Yet lawyers and Judges staunchly upheld the dogma of the uncreated Koran, and nurtured it when necessary in secret. Ibn Hanbal went further, and declared that the Koran was uncreated from 'cover to cover', that is, also in its letters and its sounds. In this he was certainly not intending to imitate the Monophysites, but he was flogged for his beliefs. When the mihnah came to an end, the doctrine of the uncreatedness was restored, and has not been challenged since, in the Sunni world. The Kharijites differ from the Sunnis on this point, and in their dogmas the Koran is entirely created, which is also true for the Shi'ites, both Twelve-Imam and Zaydi, whose theology in many ways is an extension of that of the Mu'tazilites." (Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, [Harper San Francisco, second edition 1991, 1999], pp. 231-232; bold emphasis ours) Annemarie Schimmel writes: The problem of the nature of Christ, so central in the dogmatic development of the early church, HAS ALSO INFLUENCED, IN A CERTAIN WAY, THE DEVELOPMENT OF ISLAMIC DOGMA. Christ's designation as logos, as the Word of God, "born not created," HAS MOST PROBABLY INFLUENCED ISLAMIC THEORIES ABOUT THE KORAN, which is regarded by the Muslim AS THE UNCREATED WORD OF GOD. Phenomenologically seen, THE KORAN HAS THE SAME POSITION IN ISLAMIC DOGMATICS AS HAS CHRIST IN CHRISTIANITY. Harry A. Wolfson therefore coined the term "inlibration," the "Word become Book," in contrast to the Christian concept of incarnation, "the Word became Flesh." That explains why theologians emphasized the designation ummi for Muhammad; this term, first probably meaning "the prophet sent to the gentiles" was interpreted as "illiterate." The Prophet had to be a vessel unstained by external knowledge for the Word's inlibration, just as Mary had to be a virgin in order to be a pure vessel for the Word's incarnation. That is, the Koran is much more than simply a book ... (Schimmel, Islam - An Introduction [State University of New York Press, Albany 1992], pp. 74-75; bold emphasis ours) Note carefully that Muslims themselves saw the connection between the Quran and Christ, with some authorities recognizing that it was the Chritian belief in Christ as the eternal Word which influenced Muslim understanding of the Quran. Also note from these sources that Muslims were fighting and killing each other over the precise nature of the Quran, i.e. whether it is eternal or created, which you tried to make light of. Since your Muslim scholars and writers likened the Quran to Jesus as the Word, and since Muslim orthodoxy fell on the view that the Quran is in one sense eternal while in another sense created, then what logical argument do you have against Christ being both eternal and temporal, infinite and finite, at the same time? You assert that no Muslim said that the Quran is God or divine, and presume from this that somehow this nullifies the comparison between the Christian view of Christ with the Muslim view of the Quran. In light of this, here are a series of quotes and questions I would like you to answer: If the Quran is the eternal speech of God as Muslim orthodoxy insists, then what qualities does it have? What nature does the Quran have if it is eternal? How many eternals do you have besides God? Let me further explicate my point. Either the Quran is divine since it originates out of the being and essence of the Divine, unlike creation which originated initially from nothing, or it is temporal and created, originating from the created realm, and therefore it is not God's uncreated speech. If it is God's eternal speech then how can it be less than divine, less than God? Just as my word is temporal and is no less than human in essence since it isn't the speech of God or of animals, than God's Word is eternal and no less than divine in essence. Hence, the Quran must therefore be divine if it is believed to be God's uncreated. It is not human nor is it angelic in nature, but divine. In other words the Quran is God in essence since it is God's own expression and revelation of himself and his will. Your refusal to acknowledge the divinity of the Quran doesn't prove anything except that you are unwilling to take the Muslim belief in the Quran's uncreatedness to its logical conclusion. And now to support my statement that the Quran must be divine since it isn't other than God, although the Quran isn't all that God is, let me quote you some MUSLIM sources: Muhammad ‘Abduh Muhammad ‘Abduh, the renowned and highly respected Egyptian scholar of the early part of the 20th century, reaffirms the necessary existence of God, His essence and His attributes. But as for whether the attributes are other or more than the essence, whether speech is an attribute other than the import of the heavenly books within the Divine knowledge, and whether hearing and seeing in God are other than His knowledge of things heard and seen, and other such controversial issues, of the pundits and the contentions of the schools—all these are questions impenetrable to us, beyond the wit of human mind to attain.[20] Still he plainly states that the Qur'an recognizes itself to be the Word of God, "ETERNALLY OF HIS ESSENCE".[21] On the other hand the Qur'an is created in the sense that it is manifest in the world of creation through writings and sounds.[22] Fazlur Rahman According to the distinguished twentieth-century Muslim scholar, Fazlur Rahman: ... the moral law and religious values are God's command, and although they are not identical with God entirely, THEY ARE PART OF HIM. The Qur'an is, therefore, PURELY DIVINE. ... [T]he Word was given with the inspiration itself. The Qur'an IS THE PURE DIVINE WORD, but, of course, it is equally intimately related to the inmost personality of the Prophet Muhammad whose relationship to it cannot be mechanically conceived like that of a record. The Divine Word flowed through the Prophet's heart.[23] Mahmoud Ayoub In his essay "The Word of God in Islam," Mahmoud Ayoub of Temple University continues his efforts to promote dialogue and better understanding between Muslims and Christians. At one point he responds to the first part of the prologue of the Gospel according to John thus: Muslims have also for the most part affirmed that the Qur'an in its essence is the eternal and uncreated Word of God. John tells us further that the Word was with God, but where we differ is with John's next statement, that is, that the Word is God. The great theological controversy over the Qur'an, a controversy which remains unresolved to this day, concerns the relationship of the Qur'an, as the Word of God, to God Himself. To my knowledge no one has asserted that the Qur'an is God.[26] He continues a few pages later: Many have written that what is analogous in the Islamic tradition to the Trinity in Christianity are the divine attributes. From the theological point of view this may be true, because, as al-Ash'ari reminded us, they are "neither he NOR ARE THEY OTHER THAN HE." Therefore, divine attributes share in that aspect of ministry ....[27] In response to Mahmoud's denial oft he Divinit of the Quran, Dr. Ernest Hahn rightly notes in his footnote: 26 Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub, "The Word of God in Islam", Greek Orthodox Theological Review 31.1-2 (1986): 73. One would like to ask Ayoub why he considers the controversy to be still unresolved. Would orthodox Muslims agree? Further, when he notes that he knows no Muslim who states that the Qur'an is God, WHY DOES HE (CONVENIENTLY?) OMIT THE SECOND PART OF THE CLASSICAL ORTHODOX DEFINITION OF GOD'S ATTRIBUTE: "NOR IS IT OTHER THAN HE (God)"? Asking the Muslim whether the Qur'an is created or uncreated may be as misleading or wrong as asking the Christian whether Jesus as the Word of God is created or uncreated. In both orthodox Islam and Christianity the answer is "both... and", not "either... or". The preceding citations were taken and adapted from the following article: http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/god_his ... n.htm#fn26 Please take note of the Asharis' statement that God's attributes are not him BUT THEY ARE NOT OTHER THAN HIM. Again, since the Quran is God's eternal speech than it too is NOT OTHER THAN HIM. In other words, the Quran is divine and eternal in essence, making it neither human nor angelic. It is quite evident that I have hit a nerve and that you simply can't answer rationally. This is why you resort to mockery and evasion. Let me correct you as to why I brought up the issue of the Quran. As I already demonstrated there is nothing illogical with the God-man concept, and your alleged example of a squared circle only demonstrated your gross misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the Christian position. The example of a squared circle would be more akin to Monophysitism where the divine and human natures fused into each otherr creating a third nature which is neither fully divine nor fully human. The Biblical doctrine of the Incarnation, and the position of historic Christianity, is that the two natures did not fuse together, but remained distinct at all times although united to each other. So just as you can have a square attached to a circle, with neither square nor circle ceasing to retain their distinctive shapes, you can have the Almighty God become man without ceasing to be God since in becoming man, God didn't fuse his divine nature into the human nature. Rather, God united (attached so to speak) to himself, to his divine nature, a human nature. But this is taking your illustration of two entities belonging to the same categiory as a bonafide example of the Incarnation. As I contended, God and man do not belong to the same category as do squares and circles. Squares and circles belong to the same category of shapes. It is possible, however, to take two entities from different categories and unite them or attach them together, i.e. a red square, a blue circle etc. As I contended, God can become man without ceasing to be God. He has the ability to enter into the category of humanity while still remaing within the category of Deity, since these are two separate categories which God can simultaneously exist in. (Man, on the other hand, cannot become God since it is not within his capacity to do what God can do, and cannot therefore exist in two categories of being (Deity and humanity) simultaneously). In fact, not only can God do this but both the Holy Bible and the Quran say that angels can also appear as men and yet still be angels: Genesis 18 1 And Jehovah appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day; 2 and he lifteth up his eyes and looketh, and lo, three men standing by him, and he seeth, and runneth to meet them from the opening of the tent, and boweth himself towards the earth, 3 And he saith, `My Lord, if, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, do not, I pray thee, pass on from thy servant; 4 let, I pray thee, a little water be accepted, and wash your feet, and recline under the tree; 5 and I bring a piece of bread, and support ye your heart; afterwards pass on, for therefore have ye passed over unto your servant;' and they say, `So mayest thou do as thou has spoken.' 6 And Abraham hasteth towards the tent, unto Sarah, and saith, `Hasten three measures of flour-meal, knead, and make cakes;' 7 and Abraham ran unto the herd, and taketh a son of the herd, tender and good, and giveth unto the young man, and he hasteth to prepare it; 8 and he taketh butter and milk, and the son of the herd which he hath prepared, and setteth before them; and he is standing by them under the tree, and they do eat. 9 And they say unto him, `Where [is] Sarah thy wife?' and he saith, `Lo -- in the tent;' 10 and he saith, `returning I return unto thee, about the time of life, and lo, to Sarah thy wife a son.' 11 And Sarah is hearkening at the opening of the tent, which is behind him; 12 and Abraham and Sarah [are] aged, entering into days -- the way of women hath ceased to be to Sarah; 13 and Sarah laugheth in her heart, saying, `After I have waxed old I have had pleasure! -- my lord also [is] old!' 14 And Jehovah saith unto Abraham, `Why [is] this? Sarah hath laughed, saying, Is it true really -- I bear -- and I am aged? Is any thing too wonderful for Jehovah? at the appointed time I return unto thee, about the time of life, and Sarah hath a son.' 15 And Sarah denieth, saying, `I did not laugh;' for she hath been afraid; and He saith, `Nay, but thou didst laugh.' 16 And the men rise from thence, and look on the face of Sodom, and Abraham is going with them to send them away; 17 and Jehovah said, `Am I concealing from Abraham that which I am doing, 18 and Abraham certainly becometh a nation great and mighty, and blessed in him have been all nations of the earth? 19 for I have known him, that he commandeth his children, and his house after him (and they have kept the way of Jehovah), to do righteousness and judgment, that Jehovah may bring on Abraham that which He hath spoken concerning him.' 20 And Jehovah saith, `The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah -- because great; and their sin -- because exceeding grievous: 21 I go down now, and see whether according to its cry which is coming unto Me they have done completely -- and if not -- I know;' 22 and the men turn from thence, and go towards Sodom; and Abraham is yet standing before Jehovah. 23 And Abraham draweth nigh and saith, `Dost Thou also consume righteous with wicked? 24 peradventure there are fifty righteous in the midst of the city; dost Thou also consume, and not bear with the place for the sake of the fifty -- the righteous who [are] in its midst? 25 Far be it from Thee to do according to this thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked; that it hath been -- as the righteous so the wicked -- far be it from Thee; doth the Judge of all the earth not do justice?' 26 And Jehovah saith, `If I find in Sodom fifty righteous in the midst of the city, then have I borne with all the place for their sake.' 27 And Abraham answereth and saith, `Lo, I pray thee, I have willed to speak unto the Lord, and I -- dust and ashes; 28 peradventure there are lacking five of the fifty righteous -- dost Thou destroy for five the whole of the city?' and He saith, `I destroy [it] not, if I find there forty and five.' 29 And he addeth again to speak unto Him and saith, `Peradventure there are found there forty?' and He saith, `I do [it] not, because of the forty.' 30 And he saith, `Let it not be, I Pray thee, displeasing to the Lord, and I speak: peradventure there are found there thirty?' and He saith, `I do [it] not, if I find there thirty.' 31 And he saith, `Lo, I pray thee, I have willed to speak unto the Lord: peradventure there are found there twenty?' and He saith, `I do not destroy [it], because of the twenty.' 32 And he saith, `Let it not be, I pray Thee, displeasing to the Lord, and I speak only this time: peradventure there are found there ten?' and He saith, `I do not destroy [it], because of the ten.' 33 And Jehovah goeth on, when He hath finished speaking unto Abraham, and Abraham hath turned back to his place. Genesis 18:1-33 Young' Literal Translation According to this OT passage Jehovah God himself appeared as a man, along with two other men, to Abraham and even ate food offered to him! Genesis 19:1 identifies the two men as angels. The Quran agrees At length when the messengers arrived among the adherents of Lut, He said: "Ye appear to be uncommon folk." They said: "Yea, we have come to thee to accomplish that of which they doubt. We have brought to thee that which is inevitably due, and assuredly we tell the truth. Then travel by night with thy household, when a portion of the night (yet remains), and do thou bring up the rear: let no one amongst you look back, but pass on whither ye are ordered." And We made known this decree to him, that the last remnants of those (sinners) should be cut off by the morning. The inhabitants of the city came in (mad) joy (at news of the young men). Lut said: "These are my guests: disgrace me not: But fear God, and shame me not." They said: "Did we not forbid thee (to speak) for all and sundry?" He said: "There are my daughters (to marry), if ye must act (so)." Verily, by thy life (O Prophet), in their wild intoxication, they wander in distraction, to and fro. But the (mighty) Blast overtook them before morning, And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay. S. 15:61-74 The Quran even says that Allah's Spirit appeared as a man to Mary: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her OUR SPIRIT, and there appeared to her A WELL-MADE MAN. She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent God, if you are one guarding (against evil). He said: I am only an apostle of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy. S. 19:17-19 Shakir You may claim that this was Gabriel, which wouldn't undermine my point, but affirm what I said, that angels can appear as men. But I would challenge you to produce one single Quranic verse saying that Gabriel is God's Spirit. I am afraid, though, that you will again accuse me of trying to change the subject which wouldn't be the case at all. I am only exposing your inconsistency through this line of argumentation. So my question to you is, why is it possible for angels and even God's Spirit according to the Quran to appear as men, but it is not possible for God to do likewise? Take it a step further: if God can appear as a man and still remain God as the OT shows, then why can't he actually become man without ceasing to be God? With that now clarified, I now hold you to your own standard and criteria, i.e. your belief as a Muslim regarding the Quran. So instead of running from it, face it and apply your criteria consistently. And while it is indeed true that God-man idea is unique to Christianity, the God-book idea is solely unique to Islam. |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame