I think this debate have been consumed so much. I will add my final remarks then I will leave the final word to you. Readers will always decide.
oneGOD wrote:
ALl prophets are the way to God. You can not deny that. Whether they said it or not, you are lost without prophets. If Jesus made that claim, Muhammad and Moses did too, did that make them God? NO.
Like I said, no prophet ever said to forsake your family (if they have to) in order to follow them. No prophet was given ALL power in heaven and on earth. These are things which Christ claimed.
You still won't admot that all prophets are the way to God, whether they said it or not, they are the way as shown in the quote above.
Ok notice this word :
GIVEN, God is not given power, God possess the power. So even if I agree with you and say it is given to him, then it is basically given, not something that he possessed. And of course I will always remind you of the fact that Jesus said HE CAN NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE FATHER, which simply concludes that we have two contradictory statements. One says he has the power and the other says the opposite.
oneGOD wrote:
Quote:
Christ claims to be the only begotten son of God
And where did Jesus say that?
God call many people his sons, now Jesus come and say I', the only son, simply contradict the first saying.
Israel is my first born son.
Then Jesus says, I'm the only son.
Which one is right?
You see, but you percieve not. Read what I said after the words you quoted from me above. What was my argument? You do not understand. He who has ears let him hear. Did I already not mention that you were going to say others were called sons of God? Read my argument and understand. You're missing the point. You're too emotional when reading my arguments. You're quick to speak, but not slow to listen.
I'm not really emotional. My argument above is clear, people called him the only son of God and I showed you that they were mistaken by doing so. If Jesus called himself the son of God, then I am fine with that, because we are faced with what that means in the OT as I mentioned above. I don't see Jesus making a contradiction but I see what those people wrote about him have. They called him the only one when he was actually not the only one.
oneGOD wrote:
See, this is what you don't get. Jesus said that he does nothing of himself, he can not do anything without the father. This indeed does not make him God in anyway. If Jesus is God, then it is like you are saying, that God on earth could not do anything without the help of God?
You are dealing with contradictory statements here, and the only way you can harmonize it is by separating God into two, one who is helpless on earth and one who is all powerfull in heavens. You are not making them one but two. Then we are now faced with the dogma that power is given to christ. We are also faced with other dogmas, Jesus saying that He can not judge, another contradictory statement. One last thing, Power is given to Christ, this means that Christ did not have this power and it WAS GIVEN TO HIM. As you claim Jesus us God himself, now I can only wonder, how is it given to God when God in the first place has all the power?
In both the Bible and the Qu'ran, there are passages in which God speaks to Himself. If God can speak to Himself (man can speak to themselves also), how then can God the Son not speak to God the Father. Now, you claim not to fully understand the nature of God, but here you go again arguing against it. As the scripture says, Christ is God in the flesh but humbled Himself and became a servant. Also, there are examples of Trinities which have been given over and over. Matter is solid, liquid and gas. Matter is one, but has three different representations. Why then do you keep saying God is seperated into two, when it is explained a million times that Christians believe in one God manifested in three persons? Also, if you read the scriptures, Christ says He did not come to condemn the world or judge it. How is this a contradiction to Christ being God? If you read carefully, Christ is talking about His first coming. He did not first come to earth to judge. He first came to die for the sins of man. Judgement will be in His second coming. So there is no contradiction. As for power being given to Christ, this is the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. You cannot recieve the Father unless you recieve the Son, that is why Christ is considered to be God in the flesh, because if you see Him, you see the Father. Christ is not called God in the flesh because He has power away from the Father. Christ is called God in the flesh because when you see Him, you see the Father and in order to get to the Father, you must go through Him.
I say that he is separated into two because what you write implies it. I have simply stated what Jesus himself said and that is he CAN NOT do anything without the father. If Jesus (*God in the flesh) can not do anything, then how come he is God?
Christ is not called God in the flesh because He has power away from the Father
Think about what you wrote here again.
Christ is called God in the flesh because when you see Him, you see the Father and in order to get to the Father, you must go through Him
And AGain, I repeat that If Jesus was a prophet, then he would be the only way to the father just like any other prophet. Whether they said it or not, it yields the saem result. Being the only way to the father does not mean he is God at all. If you can just accept that prophets were the way to God as Jesus was, then you would see how your logic is flawed.
oneGOD wrote:
Quote:
John 5:18>Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
As I said before, for someone who is not Jewish like the ghost writer of John, he certainly does not know that Jews always called God their father.
The only difference is, when Christ referred to God as His Father, He declared the Father and said He was the only way to the Father and the only one who has SEEN the Father. I don't see other Jews who refer to God as their father make the same claims as Christ does.
Notice that I was showing the ignorance of the ghost writer of John. He said that they wanted to kill him because he called God his father, yet all jews called God their father. that is my point here.
Still we see Jesus saying taht No one have ever seen the father, and still He who is God (Jesus) does not know when the judgement day is. The claim is that he lost his power as human. I call this SCIENCE FICTION.
Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have
I begotten thee."
Jesus saying "I am":
From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?
How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.
Matthew 28:18>And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Notice the word
GIVEN, it was given to him from a higher power obviously.
Matthew 22:42-45>Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (Also see Mark 12, Luke 20)
This will lead to geneologies stuff. I don't think Jesus is the son of david anyway.Calling him lord, has already been discussed also.
Jesus called God HIS GOD, and yes he is HIS GOD AND OUR GOD.