"My sheep hear My voice"

[Aineo]

John 10:23-30
24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." NAS

John 5:19-29

19 Jesus therefore answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greater works than these will He show Him, that you may marvel. 21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. NAS

Those who claim that Jesus is God and the Trinity is a valid doctrine do not hear Jesus' words or believe Him who sent him.

Deuteronomy 32:36-39
36 "For the LORD will vindicate His people,
And will have compassion on His servants;
When He sees that their strength is gone,
And there is none remaining, bond or free.
37 "And He will say, 'Where are their gods,
The rock in which they sought refuge?
38'Who ate the fat of their sacrifices,
And drank the wine of their libation?
Let them rise up and help you,
Let them be your hiding place!
39'See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded, and it is I who heal;
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
NAS

Isaiah 43:10-13
10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 "I, even I, am the LORD;
And there is no savior besides Me.
12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And I am God.
13 "Even from eternity I am He;
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?"
NAS

Isaiah 44:6

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me. NAS

Isaiah 45:5
5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God. NAS

The Lord Jesus affirms that the Father is the only true God.

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Therefore, we can discern that those who teach the Trinity do not hear the voice of the Good Shepherd.

[Alpha]

So I see that you do judge Trinitarians.

If one loves God with all their mind and to their best ability holds to the doctrine of the Trinity as you did in your "ignorance" in times past, how then do you say they do not hear the voice of Christ?

To hear the voice of Christ, one does not have to be perfect in doctrine. How then can one GROW in grace?

[webmaster]

If one loves God with all their mind

Will not get them into heaven.

to their best ability holds to the doctrine of the Trinity

Will not get them into heaven.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

That Gospel concept in that verse is pretty cut and dry except when you start breaking down the "my word" part and not listening to what Jesus said the Gospel is. Paul is pretty blunt about it in Galatians 1:6-9, it would get him banned on most christian forums in this country!

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Questions:

1: What is the Gospel that Jesus Spoke of in Matthew, Mark, or Luke? Jesus told them to go preach it. Preach what? BTW the word "Gospel" doesn't show up in the John?

2: What is the Gospel that Paul Spoke of?

[Aineo]

So I see that you do judge Trinitarians.

Nope, I judge a doctrine, Jesus will judge those who reject his words in favor of a man made doctrine.

If one loves God with all their mind and to their best ability holds to the doctrine of the Trinity as you did in your "ignorance" in times past, how then do you say they do not hear the voice of Christ?

How can one love God with all their mind and to their best ability when they don't believe God's words?

To hear the voice of Christ, one does not have to be perfect in doctrine. How then can one GROW in grace?

If one hears the voice of Christ they are perfect in obedience and Jesus was clear that the Father is the only true God. How then does one grow in grace? Through knowledge of the real Jesus, not the myth developed by pagan influenced Greeks.

[Alpha]

Surely you do not think all the arguments generated from biblicalunitarian.com are convincing to the point where they are deemed objective facts. Many arguments generated by Unitarians against scripture that Trinitarians use are pointed to as possible interpretations. Trinitarians would go to the Greek and Hebrew scriptures just as much as Unitarians do.

If someone has no ulterior motive and wants to know the truth, but is not convinced to choose one side after searching, I don't think God will punish them for their limited understanding concerning fully understanding His nature.

Christ said the Holy Spirit will convict the world of their sin, not of Unitarian versus Trinitarian doctrine.

Also, you know Trinitarians would say that the Father sent the Son and the Father is greater than the Son. They will not deny this, but they interpretate it in a way that Christ has two natures and in his human nature, the Father is greater. If you are going to attack a point of Trinitarians, attack the whole point.

[Aineo]

Nice try Alpha, however all you are doing is denying the Lord's own words in your attempt to justify a doctrine that is clearly false. Did Jesus lie when he prayed to the Father and said He is the only true God? In order to teach that Jesus has two natures, Trinitarians have to redefine Greek words, and ignore the fact that Scripture does not tell us that Jesus has God's nature, Scripture plainly states that Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature and has a nature like we do.

God expects us to believe Him, not Origen of Alexandria.

Now, you have posted a lot of emotion with no substance. If you think you can establish the Trinity as God's truth then show me where I am wrong, but then if you could you would have wouldn't you?

[webmaster]

I don't think God will punish them for their limited understanding concerning fully understanding His nature.

I don't think God will punish us for our limited understanding concerning Jesus's nature without us fully understanding it?

1st If we don't know the Son's Nature then how do we know the Father's Nature?
2nd With greater knowledge that we all have access to nowdays then there also comes greater responsibility.

Christ said the Holy Spirit will convict the world of their sin, not of Unitarian versus Trinitarian doctrine.

"When he [the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."

[Alpha]

Aineo, you said to tuppence in the "Is Jesus God?" thread:

Have you considered that it is Trinitarians who will die in their sin because they worship a man as God? I won't go that far since I am not in a position to judge the hearts of men.

Now you say,

Those who claim that Jesus is God and the Trinity is a valid doctrine do not hear Jesus' words or believe Him who sent him.

To imply the above is to imply that one cannot be Christian if they hold to the Trinity. But in the previous quote you say that you won't go as far to say that Trinitarians will die in their sins.

I'm not arguing from emotion; you have to make up your mind.

[Alpha]

I don't think God will punish them for their limited understanding concerning fully understanding His nature.

I don't think God will punish us for our limited understanding concerning Jesus's nature without us fully understanding it?

1st If we don't know the Son's Nature then how do we know the Father's Nature?
2nd With greater knowledge that we all have access to nowdays then there also comes greater responsibility.

Christ said the Holy Spirit will convict the world of their sin, not of Unitarian versus Trinitarian doctrine.

"When he [the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."

What's up Marty. It's been a while.

That verse you quote from John 16:8, you miss the fact that Christ interprets each thing after:

John 16:9-11 >> Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Also, we know whatever the Bible reveals to us. Paul says that we speak mysteries concerning the kingdom of God. I'll prefer, like Paul, to continue speaking mysteries and not act like I have it all together. Especially concerning doctrines that are way past milk and solid food.

[webmaster]

Especially concerning doctrines that are way past milk and solid food.

Everything we talk about and read on this stupid computer is so beyond milk and solid food it's funny! That's the point we don't take seriously! Acting like we still drink milk from a bottle when we're 50 isn't gonna cut it as an excuse.

[Alpha]

Especially concerning doctrines that are way past milk and solid food.

Everything we talk about and read on this stupid computer is so beyond milk and solid food it's funny! That's the point we don't take seriously! Acting like we still drink milk from a bottle when we're 50 isn't gonna cut it as an excuse.

If someone is 50 and still drinking milk, I will like to direct them to the prayer request forum.

But notice I also mentioned solid food. Paul said we are to move onto solid foods, while in this corruptable flesh. Claiming to know it all concerning the Unitarian or Trinitairan doctrines is like claiming you have a glorified body.

[webmaster]

Problem is that within the Bible the Unitarian or Trinitairan doctrine problems are explained in simple english or greek.
Problem is what then?

1: Refusing to read it?
Nope

2: Refusing to accept what we read?
Yes

3: Why?

[Alpha]

webmaster said:

Problem is that within the Bible the Unitarian or Trinitairan doctrine problems are explained in simple english or greek.
Problem is what then?

But both Unitarians and Trinitarians use the english and greek to support different parts of scripture. The debate keeps going back and forth. To be honest, I will say that Unitarians have more of an argument, atleast to the best of my understanding. But there are still loop holes that Trinitarians can crawl into.

For example, going back to the "Is Jesus God?" thread, Aineo said to tuppence:

I will take Jesus' plainly worded statements as trumping your interpretation of "I am".

But one can use that same argument that Aineo is using for interpretating the John 1 passages that Trinitarians would use. If I just look at the plain words from those passages, then they imply Christ is God.

[Aineo]

Alpha, God has already judged those who reject His truth in favor of the traditions of men. Therefore, when Jesus says that eternal life requires that we believe the Father and Trinitarians believe Origen and the other ECF's who decided that Jesus is God they judge themselves. When people believe Satan's lies then they are part of Satan's kingdom not the Kingdom of God.

Now, if you can refute the Scriptures I have posted that show the Trinity is a false doctrine then do so instead of trying to attack me, which is the last resort of any person who cannot defend what they want to believe.

You alluded to Paul's use of the word "mystery", so let's see where Paul speaks of "mystery".

Ephesians 1:3-14

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
NAS

Paul starts this teaching with blessing the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is a bit odd if Paul believed that Jesus is god. He then goes on to teach that God has revealed His mystery, not that salvation by His grace through faith is a mystery that we cannot understand. In Ephesians 5 & 6 Paul again teaches that the mystery is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Peter, Paul, and John are clear that Jesus is a man who God the Father highly exalted to His right hand as Prince, Savior, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the only way to the Father, and etc. However they never teach that Jesus is God because they believed God who plainly states in the foundation of Christianity that He is the only God who alone created all that exists.

[Alpha]

Aineo, respond to my attacks.

[Aineo]

Aineo, respond to my attacks.

No, I am through with the petty little games people play. Now if you cannot or will not address God's word then your posts will be deleted.

Revelation 3:14-22

14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. 16'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich, and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent. 20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' " NAS

The New Testament church was Unitarian to the core. None of the apostles taught a triune God, so you have to decide if you are going to remain lukewarm or take a firm position.

Do you believe God or men? The OP has Scripture that plainly states the Father is the only true God and any concept of God that denies His truth is a false concept and therefore heresy.

[Alpha]

Let's first go back to: "My sheep hear my voice."

Christ said to Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Then he said to Nicodemus that he should not marvel at this. Christians therefore hear Christ when he says they must be born again, but that does not mean Christians fully understand how God admisisters His grace to save people.

Now, concerning the Trinity debate; for you to quote that verse and conclude that Trinitarians do not hear the voice of Christ is false on two accounts:

1) The account of God.
2) Your own accout

Concerning 1) Since you love to quote the John 5 verse so much, I will use this to say the following:

Whether Christ has two natures or not, Trinitarians believe that Christ was speaking in his human nature in John 5:19-29. Unitarians also believe Christ was speaking in his human nature in those verses, because Unitarians believe Christ has only a human nature. The conclusion is that both hear the voice of Christ in that verse.

Concerning 2) My "attacks" on you, I suppose, is when I quote your contradictory ways. You first say that you are not judging Trinitarians, then you go right ahead and judge them by implying they do not hear the voice of Christ. To imply such a thing is to imply one is not saved; for how can one be saved unless they hear the voice of Christ?

Responding to me being "lukewarm": To be lukewarm does not mean to not understand something in God's word and therefore not take a firm stance. Take for example the issue of predestination. The bible clearly teaches it, but its how God predestines that's being debated. In Romans 9:22, Paul speculates an argument concerning the way God predestines by starting off saying, "What if......" Are you going to say Paul is being lukewarm because of his speculation? Why not tell Paul to take a "firm stance" ?

The fact that I say Unitarianism has a better argument should show you that there are still some Trinitarian arguments in which Unitarians only speculate against. So according to you, Unitarians are being lukewarm because they are not able to cast down ALL Trinitarian arguments. Rather, they are able to cast down some, or even most, but the rest are speculated against. In other words, you are basically telling me to guess my position in taking a firm stance because I am still willing to claim ignorance concerning fully grasping the nature of God. An attempt to influence one to guess their position by calling them lukewarm is one in which God will hold you accountable for, unless you repent.

Now, my whole reasoning in being involved in this thread is just to point out that you are judging (or condemning) Trinitarians, when you said in a previous thread that you will not do such a thing.

[Alpha]

Aineo said:

In order to teach that Jesus has two natures, Trinitarians have to redefine Greek words, and ignore the fact that Scripture does not tell us that Jesus has God's nature

Scripture does not say Christ has two natures, but Trinitarians will say that it is implied.

Can you show me (explain or give a link) how Trinitarians redefine Greek words to show that Christ has two natures?[/quote]

[Aineo]

Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again and then told Nicodemus how to be born again so your abridgment of John 3 is faulty since Jesus does introduce how God administers His grace. Romans 9:22 is a rhetorical statement and is only part of what is teaching in Romans 9. As to predestination, those who believe in predestination as taught by Calvin ignore the word "foreknew" in all Scripture they use to try to prove God's irresistible grace.

One reason I will not respond to what you see as contradictions is that you have not read all my posts as I have posted how Trinitarians redefine words like "morfee" (Philippians 2:6) to show that Jesus has two natures with links to show why they are wrong. Also Alpha I do not use John 5 a lot, in fact I have only concentrated on John 5 on this thread because it has been used against me and my Unitarian position, which is why I posted those Scriptures that show Trinitarians do not believe God who sent Jesus into the world. And my position is not contradictory since I am pointing out a fallacy in a doctrine and a religious philosophy not judging those who disagree with me to an eternity in hell, which is what tuppence did on the post you referenced.

And you are lukewarm since you refuse to take a public stance on a doctrine that is clearly false. The Kingdom of God is a theocracy not a democracy where men get to vote on what is and is not true.

Do you remember our discussions (disagreements) on how Christians treat the gay community where you pointed out that unless Christians hammer on Leviticus 18:22, 20:13; Romans 1:26f; 1st Corinthians 6:9; and etc. they are not truly loving their neighbor? If you do then why take umbrage to my pointing out that those who do not believe God and teach the Trinity do not hear the voice of Christ? If you love your neighbor do you sit by and watch them drive off a cliff?

[Alpha]

Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again and then told Nicodemus how to be born again so your abridgment of John 3 is faulty since Jesus does introduce how God administers His grace.

If you are referring to the things Christ said after John 3:14, then keep in mind that I said, "that does not mean Christians fully understandhow God admisisters His grace to save people." If you fully understand how a person is born again then you do not hear the voice of Christ when he says to Nicodemus, "marvel not" and then gives reference to the wind and says that we "cannot tell where is comes from and where it goes."

Romans 9:22 is a rhetorical statement and is only part of what is teaching in Romans 9. As to predestination, those who believe in predestination as taught by Calvin ignore the word "foreknew" in all Scripture they use to try to prove God's irresistible grace.

My point in referencing Romans 9 was not to debate predestination. Paul speculates according to his words by saying "What if....." Paul also said once concerning (I believe) marriage that he does not speak by commandment but by permission. Then he said he thought he had the Spirit of God by speaking certain things by permission. So, go tell Paul about his "lukewarmness" via lack of a firm stance.

One reason I will not respond to what you see as contradictions is that you have not read all my posts as I have posted how Trinitarians redefine words like "morfee" (Philippians 2:6) to show that Jesus has two natures with links to show why they are wrong.

So, if someone stumbles upon something you said, and asks you a question, you expect them to go through this entire forum to find the answer in a previous post you made? Some people don't have the luxury of being online all day. You know what you said, so why don't you provide the link, re-answer the question, or just copy and paste what you said? Those are a few alternatives rather than just pointing out that you already discussed it.

And my position is not contradictory since I am pointing out a fallacy in a doctrine and a religious philosophy not judging those who disagree with me to an eternity in hell, which is what tuppence did on the post you referenced.

You said:

"Therefore, we can discern that those who teach the Trinity do not hear the voice of the Good Shepherd."

Does this imply that unless one hears the voice of the Good Shepard, they can't be saved? If not, what did you mean?

And you are lukewarm since you refuse to take a public stance on a doctrine that is clearly false. The Kingdom of God is a theocracy not a democracy where men get to vote on what is and is not true.

Being lukewarm has nothing to do with choosing sides in a contraversial debate. Revelation 3:15-19 basically tells us how that church was being lukewarm, according to their works. They were putting their trust in riches and not in God.

Do you remember our discussions (disagreements) on how Christians treat the gay community where you pointed out that unless Christians hammer on Leviticus 18:22, 20:13; Romans 1:26f; 1st Corinthians 6:9; and etc. they are not truly loving their neighbor? If you do then why take umbrage to my pointing out that those who do not believe God and teach the Trinity do not hear the voice of Christ? If you love your neighbor do you sit by and watch them drive off a cliff?

I probably did mention that, but I cannot recall. Even if I did mention it, it was not to support gay bashing. Homosexuals are no worse sinners than heterosexuals. However, unless they repent, God will punish them both.

What you are doing is (allegedly, until you tell me what you meant by saying Trinitarians do not hear the voice of Christ) not the same. Homosexuality is clearly deemed a sin and an abomination to God. However, God will not hold one accountable for not fully grasping His nature. Shall God hold a human being accountable for being "God" themselves? Holding to the Trinity is not going to save anyone, but it is not going to take away their salvation either. Now, if Unitarian doctrine is displayed to them and they neglect it because they want to hold to tradition and not hold true to what their conscience reveals through intellect -- God will hold someone accountable to that. But some Trinitarians are not mentally convinced of Unitarianism, just like when you and I were Trinitarian. So, you think you are watching someone drive off a cliff when in reality they are just about to experience a bumpy ride.

[Aineo]

If you can take the time to find a quote from one thread then you can take the time to find all the discussions concerning Christ's nature. However:

1. These verses in Philippians are very important to Trinitarian doctrine (although they have also caused division among Trinitarians) and they must be dealt with thoroughly. There are several arguments wrapped into these two verses, and we will deal with them point by point. First, many Trinitarians assert that the word “form,” which is the Greek word morphe, refers to Christ’s inner nature as God. This is so strongly asserted that in verse 6 the NIV has, “being in very nature God.” We do not believe that morphe refers to an “inner essential nature,” and we will give evidence that it refers to an outer form. Different lexicons have opposing viewpoints about the definition of morphe, to such a degree that we can think of no other word defined by the lexicons in such contradictory ways. We will give definitions from lexicons that take both positions, to show the differences between them.
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... ge&pid=127

Now since you have referred to the Biblical Unitarian Internet site in more than one of your posts why ask for information you already have? Furthermore if you took the time to check definitions of Greek words, a practice you have denigrated, you will find this:

NT:3444

morfee, morfees, hee

the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: Philippians 2:6
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

I believe I have also linked to Restoration Fellowship on threads you have responded to.

In John 5 Jesus is very clear as to how the Father administers His grace. God's grace requires:

1) Believing Him (the Father) who sent him (Jesus).
2) Hearing what Jesus said.

The scribes and Pharisees heard what Jesus said however Jesus called them hypocrites and white washed tombs because they did not believe the Father because they were bound by their traditions.

Matthew 23:15

15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. NAS

If you are going to appeal to Paul at least put his words in context. Appealing to rhetorical statements and truncating what he wrote only shows how desperate you are. Paul wrote:

1st Corinthians 7:8-16

8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. 9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn. 10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11(but if she does leave, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not send his wife away. 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, let him not send her away. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, let her not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? NAS

The Lord Jesus addressed divorce and remarriage twice in Matthew.

Matthew 5:30-32
31 "And it was said, 'Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce'; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
NAS

Matthew 19:7-12
7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." 10 The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." 11 But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." NAS

Paul expressed an opinion that contradicted the Lord's teaching just as Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of men's hearts. So how do you get that Paul had permission to contravene the Lord from what he wrote?

I probably did mention that, but I cannot recall. Even if I did mention it, it was not to support gay bashing. Homosexuals are no worse sinners than heterosexuals. However, unless they repent, God will punish them both.

The same is true for Christians who ignore God in order to justify a man made doctrine. However, you were trying to justify using Christian doctrine against those who reject Christianity while on this thread you are trying to justify a false doctrine. It is the Father who transfers those who believe His truth into the Kingdom of His beloved son, not the doctrines developed by men who decided Jesus is God. Jesus was given all authority in heaven on on earth to enforce God's truth, not contravene God's truth. The Lord will judge the world based on God's righteous truth, not man's traditions.

Colossians 1:9-14

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. NAS

BTW, Paul was not lukewarm and was adamant that the Father is the only true God.

1st Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Romans 15:6
6 that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
NAS
Romans 15:6
6 that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
NAS
2nd Corinthians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort; NAS

Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, NAS

Colossians 1:3
3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, NAS

As was Peter:

1st Peter 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, NAS

As was the Lord:

Mark 12:29-31
29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 31 "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NAS

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
NAS

As to those in Laodicea, it is the rich that have imposed false doctrines on the church and have tried (successfully and unsuccessfully) to impose Christian doctrine on non-Christians (Crusades, Inquisitions, and etc.) since the 4th century.

Now, you have danced around all the Scriptures I posted, which is always the case with those who are either lukewarm or put tradition above God's truth.

[Alpha]

If you can take the time to find a quote from one thread then you can take the time to find all the discussions concerning Christ's nature.

It took less than a couple minutes to find the quotes I quoted from you. Memory played a great deal in this.

Now since you have referred to the Biblical Unitarian Internet site in more than one of your posts why ask for information you already have?

Referring to the site does not mean I've read everything on the site. Quoting you does not mean I've read every word on this forum. Like I said, not every one has the luxury of being online all day. But thanks for the link, I will examine it.

In John 5 Jesus is very clear as to how the Father administers His grace. God's grace requires:

1) Believing Him (the Father) who sent him (Jesus).
2) Hearing what Jesus said.

If you understood what I said, you would not be telling me this.

If you are going to appeal to Paul at least put his words in context. Appealing to rhetorical statements and truncating what he wrote only shows how desperate you are.

I know what Paul said. He said "What if...", he did not say "God does this..." in that Romans verse. Even if you say it was rhetorical, the statement itself is a speculative defense.

Also, the verse I am referring to concerning marriage is 1 Corinthians 7:40 (that's why I said in referring to Paul's statement "I BELEIVE" he said such and such, because he refers to marriage more than once). Therefore, I was open to correction, but not being called "desperate" as if I am here to win an argument.

BTW, Paul was not lukewarm and was adamant that the Father is the only true God.

Paul was "lukewarm" when he said in 1 Corinthians 7:40 that he "thinks" he has the Spirit of God the same way I am "lukewarm" when I say that I "think" Trinitarians can be saved.

Finally, you did not address my question on what you meant by saying Trinitarians do not hear the voice of Christ. I believe I already know your answer because you implied that those who believe in the Trinity are driving off a cliff. This shows that you view Trinitarians as those who are sinning against God and need to repent for believing in the Trinity or they cannot be saved. All I want you to do is admit this.

[Aineo]

Alpha, what makes your responses desperate is the fact you have not addressed the Scriptures I posted in the OP that plainly teach us that the Father is the only God, a fact that Jesus, Paul, and Peter also taught. This thread deals with the Trinity not Paul's rhetorical questions or how false doctrine is developed by taking Scripture out of context. What makes your responses desperate is that predestination and divorce are topics for other threads, not this one.

Expressing an opinion is not being lukewarm, what makes one lukewarm is trying to encompass all doctrines (true or false) in an effort to avoid controversy and is the first step to universalism. Being lukewarm is not taking the time to quote Paul directly instead of trying to rely on memory, especially when you are using what Paul wrote in a rebuttal. Paul was not lukewarm since he did not waver on Christians should not divorce, what you see as lukewarm is what he wrote concerning an unbeliever leaving a believer.

Now you have taken this thread off topic long enough, either address the Scriptures in the OP or your post will be deleted.

[Alpha]

Alpha, what makes your responses desperate is the fact you have not addressed the Scriptures I posted in the OP that plainly teach us that the Father is the only God, a fact that Jesus, Paul, and Peter also taught. This thread deals with the Trinity not Paul's rhetorical questions or how false doctrine is developed by taking Scripture out of context. What makes your responses desperate is that predestination and divorce are topics for other threads, not this one.

Expressing an opinion is not being lukewarm, what makes one lukewarm is trying to encompass all doctrines (true or false) in an effort to avoid controversy and is the first step to universalism.

Me metioning Paul is a response to you falsely calling me lukewarm. You can blame yourself for the discussion heading in that direction.

Also, I am not trying to avoid contraversy. I've been on this forum for years, and you yourself know that's not how I operate.

Now, I already told you what my reasoning was for entering this discussion: The fact that you are claiming Trinitarians are damned unless they repent.

I said:

"Finally, you did not address my question on what you meant by saying Trinitarians do not hear the voice of Christ. I believe I already know your answer because you implied that those who believe in the Trinity are driving off a cliff. This shows that you view Trinitarians as those who are sinning against God and need to repent for believing in the Trinity or they cannot be saved. All I want you to do is admit this."

Do you deny any of this?

[Alpha]

Aineo, you said to tuppence (a Trinitarian): "Have you considered that it is Trinitarians who will die in their sin because they worship a man as God? I won't go that far since I am not in a position to judge the hearts of men."

The bolded part of your quote is one that you made. So Trinitarians can be saved?

I will be bold to say by the authority of God and not my own authority, that all those who practice wickness and who have a disposition against the things of God, will go to hell.

Will you boldly say by the authority of God, and not your own, that Trinitarians are going to hell? Appearently not. This is my point!

[Aineo]

Alpha, what makes your responses desperate is the fact you have not addressed the Scriptures I posted in the OP that plainly teach us that the Father is the only God, a fact that Jesus, Paul, and Peter also taught. This thread deals with the Trinity not Paul's rhetorical questions or how false doctrine is developed by taking Scripture out of context. What makes your responses desperate is that predestination and divorce are topics for other threads, not this one.

Expressing an opinion is not being lukewarm, what makes one lukewarm is trying to encompass all doctrines (true or false) in an effort to avoid controversy and is the first step to universalism.

Me metioning Paul is a response to you falsely calling me lukewarm. You can blame yourself for the discussion heading in that direction.

Also, I am not trying to avoid contraversy. I've been on this forum for years, and you yourself know that's not how I operate.

Now, I already told you what my reasoning was for entering this discussion: The fact that you are claiming Trinitarians are damned unless they repent.

Yes I know how you operate, you haven taken the position that Sabbatarians could be correct as well as those who oppose their position, you see how the Trinity can be interpreted and also how the Trinity can be defeated and therefore will not take a public stance on either subject. Also you refuse to accept that it is not I who is judging Trinitarians, it is Jesus who said that eternal life requires believing the Father and hearing his words. The reason I say you are lukewarm is based on your posts since you refuse to take a stance on many issues you view as controversial that split the institutional church.

I started this thread with Scripture supporting what I posted and you choose to attack me instead of addressing Scripture and that Alpha is the same petty game played by those who know they cannot defeat God's truth but still want to support a long held tradition. I am through with petty games, so either so me where I am wrong using God's word and not your biased opinions or adherer to the Forum Rules you are supposed to enforce as a moderator and don't post to this thread.

[Alpha]

Yes I know how you operate, you haven taken the position that Sabbatarians could be correct as well as those who oppose their position, you see how the Trinity can be interpreted and also how the Trinity can be defeated and therefore will not take a public stance on either subject. Also you refuse to accept that it is not I who is judging Trinitarians, it is Jesus who said that eternal life requires believing the Father and hearing his words. The reason I say you are lukewarm is based on your posts since you refuse to take a stance on many issues you view as controversial that split the institutional church.

I would not say that Sabbatarians and non-Sabbatarians are going to die in their sins. Also, you can say that I am being lukewarm. But I just take it to mean another lukewarm and not the one in the bible.

I started this thread with Scripture supporting what I posted and you choose to attack me instead of addressing Scripture and that Alpha is the same petty game played by those who know they cannot defeat God's truth but still want to support a long held tradition. I am through with petty games, so either so me where I am wrong using God's word and not your biased opinions or adherer to the Forum Rules you are supposed to enforce as a moderator and don't post to this thread.

What I posted is relevant to this thread, and you deleted it. Now, in the OP you claim Trinitarians do not hear the voice of Christ. I responded to the OP.

I will boldly say that those who do dispose themselves to ungodliness will die in their sins. Will you say that Trinitarians would die in their sins with that same boldness?

My answer to that question was NO, based upon what you said to tuppence. So, that implies that Trnitarians can hear the voice of Christ, which you are all of a sudden not implying in the OP.

I am not playing games.

[Aineo]

Anyone who elevates tradition above God's truth will die in their sins be they Trinitarian or Unitarian.

And you have not addressed these:

Deuteronomy 32:36-39
36 "For the LORD will vindicate His people,
And will have compassion on His servants;
When He sees that their strength is gone,
And there is none remaining, bond or free.
37 "And He will say, 'Where are their gods,
The rock in which they sought refuge?
38'Who ate the fat of their sacrifices,
And drank the wine of their libation?
Let them rise up and help you,
Let them be your hiding place!
39'See now that I, I am He,
And there is no god besides Me;
It is I who put to death and give life.
I have wounded, and it is I who heal;
And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.
NAS

Isaiah 43:10-13
10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 "I, even I, am the LORD;
And there is no savior besides Me.
12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,
And there was no strange god among you;
So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And I am God.
13 "Even from eternity I am He;
And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
I act and who can reverse it?"
NAS

Isaiah 44:6

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me. NAS

Isaiah 45:5
5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God. NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

You choose to find one statement I made to tuppence and build a straw man, which you have attacked. Yes I have deleted some of your posts and I will continue to delete your posts that focus on me instead of on God's word.

How did Paul put it?

Galatians 1:6-10

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. 10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. NAS

And BTW Alpha, I can find many of my past posts that contradict my present position and understanding of the Scriptures and as my studies continue I will most likely continue to modify what I believe. Therefore digging up the past is just a ploy to avoid what is being discussed on this thread and what is being discussed is the Trinity not me.

[Alpha]

You can do better than those verses if you want to disprove the Trinity. You already know the arguments Trinitarians would use against the quotes from the bible you bolded.

[Aineo]

You can do better than those verses if you want to disprove the Trinity. You already know the arguments Trinitarians would use against the quotes from the bible you bolded.

Is this the best you can do on a thread dealing with the Father is the only true God?

Deuteronomy 32:1-43

Verse 39. The appeal to their own experience of the worthlessness of idols is followed by a demand that they should acknowledge Jehovah as the only true God. The repetition of "I" is emphatic: "I, I only it," as an expression of being; I am it, egoo' (NT:1473) eimi (NT:1510), John 8:24; 18:5. The predicate Elohim (vid., 2 nd Samuel 7:28; Isaiah 37:16) is omitted, because it is contained in the thought itself, and moreover is clearly expressed in the parallel clause which follows, "there is not a God beside Me." Jehovah manifests himself in His doings, which Israel had experienced already, and still continued to experience. He kills and makes http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... id=99alive, etc., i.e., He has the power of life and death. These words do not refer to the immortality of the soul, but to the restoration of life of the people of Israel, which God had delivered up to death (so 1 st Samuel 2:6; 2 nd Kings 5:7; cf. Isaiah 26:19; Hosea 13:10; Wisd. 16:13; Tobit 13:2). This thought, and the following one, which is equally consolatory, that God smites and heals again, are frequently repeated by the prophets (vid., Hosea 6:1; Isaiah 30:26; 57:17-18; Jeremiah 17:14). None can deliver out of His hand (vid., Isaiah 43:13; Hosea 5:14; 2:12).
(from Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

The Biblical Unitarian site does a good job of refuting the Trinitarian interpretation of the two word phrase "I am".

Trinitarians occasionally cite this verse to try to show the necessity of believing their doctrine, and unfortunately sometimes even to intimidate those who doubt it. They supply the word “God” after “I am,” not from the text, but from the dictates of their doctrine, and make the verse read: “For if you believe not that I am [God], ye shall die in your sins.” This is a distortion of the biblical text as a whole, and the Gospel of John in particular. The purpose of the Gospel is clearly stated in 20:31: “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is [“God”? No!] the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” In light of the explicitly stated purpose of the Gospel of John, teaching that unless one believes in Christ’s “deity,” he will die in his sins, is particularly unwarranted. The true meaning of the text is that if one does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, he will die in his sins, and this teaching can be found in a number of scriptures in the New Testament. Obviously, if one chooses to not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, he will die in his sins. We believe the NIV does a good job with this particular text, especially in light of the way Christ was veiling his role as Messiah: “If you do not believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” This then fits with other times he said similar things, such as in John 13:19 when he said to disciples at the last supper, “I am telling you this before it [his betrayal] happens so that when it does happen you will believe that I am he.”
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... age&pid=99

I already know how Trinitarians interpret various words and phrases to support the doctrine of the Trinity, so the issue is does the Bible contradict itself or do men contradict the Bible.

Really Alpha if all you are going to do is avoid discussions then why waste your time?

[Alpha]

Really Alpha if all you are going to do is avoid discussions then why waste your time?

Unneccesary statement, it judges intentions -- falsely so. All you had to do was provide the links.

[Aineo]

Really Alpha if all you are going to do is avoid discussions then why waste your time?

Unneccesary statement, it judges intentions -- falsely so. All you had to do was provide the links.

It states the fact that you have done nothing more than post ab hominids and avoid discussing the Scriptures that are found in the OP. I bolded full statements in Scripture and you appeal to Trinitarian apologists who take two words out of one verse and build a doctrine on those two words.

Now if you think you can defeat my thesis with something besides personal attacks then please do so, otherwise you are wasting your time after all this is a thread to debate the Trinity not take exception with my change in position as well as ignoring that I have repeatedly stated that I am not judging anyone, God's word is doing the judging.

[Alpha]

Those who claim that Jesus is God and the Trinity is a valid doctrine do not hear Jesus' words or believe Him who sent him.

But they hear Christ when he says in John 5:23,

"that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Though you can say that the Father has bestowed such honor on Christ, that's a strawman that can be set up. The point is, Trinitarians honor Christ as they honor the Father.

[Aineo]

"Honor as" does not equate to "same essence", after all when Aaron and Miriam opposed Moses God inflicted Miriam with leprosy since God said He would make Moses as God to Pharaoh and Aaron as his prophet (Exodus 7:1). In Hebrew as well as other cultures the eldest son and heir of the father was due all the honors usually given or attributed to the father, which makes your argument fallacious. Cults that promote heresy honor Jesus as they honor God.

[Alpha]

"Honor as" does not equate to "same essence", after all when Aaron and Miriam opposed Moses God inflicted Miriam with leprosy since God said He would make Moses as God to Pharaoh and Aaron as his prophet (Exodus 7:1). In Hebrew as well as other cultures the eldest son and heir of the father was due all the honors usually given or attributed to the father, which makes your argument fallacious. Cults that promote heresy honor Jesus as they honor God.

Initially, you're arguing the strawman that I mentioned. I am not talking about essence.

In terms of the honor, this is what I am talking about.

The fact is, the verse says that the Son will be honored just as the Father is honored. It does not say that the Son will be honored, and that's it. It gives a comparison of what level of honor will be given to the Son.

[Alpha]

However, you still have continued to address specific Scriptures that prove the Trinity is a man made doctrine.

If you are referring to John 5:23, then I already clearly indicated that I am not talking about essence. As to the other scriptures, you addressed them.

[Aineo]

The fact is Jesus says that eternal life requires believing the Father, who clearly states He alone created all that exists and is the only God, which is why Trinitarians do not hear what Jesus really taught.